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The rioters came fairly close to getting to the senators. Suppose the mob found Nancy Pelosi? I think it is probable she would have been killed. That doesn’t m

The rioters came fairly close to getting to the senators. Suppose the mob found Nancy Pelosi? I think it is probable she would have been killed. That doesn’t mean they control the us government. But it’s non trivial.

gjsman-1000 5y ago
- oneoff786 5y ago
  > Remind me what the Secret Service exists for again, Protecting the president. The secret service does not protect senators > and who got the lawmakers out of there before the rioters came. Capitol Hill police I believe. > Maybe Democracy would have been closer to dying I’m pretty sure I explicitly said that wasn’t on the table. My point was that the rioters got very close. That is, one door away, then lured to other areas by a clever guard. I think it is fully plausible that they would have assassinated democratic political leaders if given the chance. Not ALL of the rioters, but certainly some.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Well, then, it would have been a massacre, but democracy still wouldn't have died. We have a chain of command that has been clearly defined - President, then Vice President, then Speaker of the House, then all of the Secretaries in a specific order, and so on. Unless they managed to get the Army, or the Nuclear Codes, or something greater than just controlling a building, they would have needed to kill the President, the Vice President, and every single House and Senate member (including those not in the building) and then get control of the Army or Popular Support or something massive to have a shot. I don't think they were anywhere close with that.
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      You keep framing this as either democracy dies or it’s a nonissue. Personally I think a mob massacre of political leaders is bad on its own. Ymmv.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - regularfry 5y ago
      This is begging the question, textbook. The whole point would be to install the President by non-democratic means.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Realistically what would have happened is many rioters en masse would have been killed by security forces which would have become a big political issue.
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      I think if rioters were killed trying to breach the senator room it would be a lot less of a political issue, with them clearly being portrayed as villains even by republicans.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        Given the martyr treatment Ashli Babbitt has gotten, I would not be so sure.
cscurmudgeon 5y ago
Didn't the BLM rioters also come close to Trump? Why was that different?
- oneoff786 5y ago
  Scale, context, size, and defense of the actions of the rioters mostly.
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      That some things are subjective does not make them without merit.
      - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
        > That some things are subjective does not make them without merit. Nice to see 1984's birth in action. As someone who escaped a socialist autocracy, this is chilling to US descending into the same thing.
yucky 5y ago
>I think it is probable she would have been killed. What leads you to call that probable? I don't think it's impossible, after all it's only been a few years since that Bernie supporter shot at all those Republican congressmen, and Scalise almost did die. But that guy was actually armed and went with that purpose, these goofs appear to have been unarmed protesters who turned into a mob. I know you don't need a gun to kill someone, I just find your assessment that it was probable she would be killed a stretch.
- lapsedacademic 5y ago
  > What leads you to call that probable? Because people with guns who said they wanted to kill her entered the capitol with their guns and started looking for her. E.g., from one charging document: "Thinking about heading over to Pelosi CUNT’s speech and putting a bullet in her noggin on Live TV [purple devil emoji]." Charges: Possession of Unregistered Firearms, Possession of Unregistered Ammunition, Possession of Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Devices. So... he had a gun, said he wanted to kill pelosi, and then broke into a federal building and started looking for her. He was probably just trolling and this is all a big over-reaction, right? /s > unarmed https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases > that Bernie supporter... the main different here is that I don't recall there being a systemic effort to defend him and explain that it's really no big deal.
  - yucky 5y ago
    >entered the capitol with their guns Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody entered the Capitol with guns. I'm aware that sounds like downplaying the incident, which is not my intention. I just think accuracy matters. The guy you're referring to (who was thankfully charged), did not enter the Capitol with a gun, according to the charging document. What gave you the idea that he entered the Capitol with a gun, the charging document is pretty clear? >the main different here is that I don't recall there being a systemic effort to defend him and explain that it's really no big deal. The effort was just to blame Trump's rhetoric for that guys actions. Which, Trump's rhetoric was less than helpful to say the least, but that was a poor excuse for trying to murder a bunch of congresspeople. Alas, this is the problem with demanding accuracy. If someone says something false about a bad person or incident, we are unable to ask for accuracy unless we are willing to be seen as defending it.
whimsicalism 5y ago
> The rioters came fairly close to getting to the senators. Suppose the mob found Nancy Pelosi? "Fairly close" to me would likely involve more of the rioters being shot. The fact that so few were shot indicates that the state was largely keeping their gloves on, which they would not if there was any risk of a senator actually being killed.
- oneoff786 5y ago
  The rioters failed to find the senators. They were one door away, and a guard lured them in the wrong direction. I’m not sure how much of an armed guard presence was accompanying the senators at the time, though I believe it was not a large presence. Supposing they instead entered the room, it is probable to me that they would have been immediately shot. I doubt the rioters could have taken the room but who knows. In any case * I think the rioters would have killed some democratic leaders if given the opportunity * I think more gunshots would have occurred if the rioters went a different direction by chance * I think this is way, way too far already in terms of what is remotely ok.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    And yet Democratics encouraged and even participated in blocking the Supreme Court confirmation vote using... a march to the capital and overrunning capital security forces and successfuy occupying every space they attempted to reach. Why shouldn't any of them been shot? Both were confirmations to the highest level of office in their respective branch of government and both were staged by political opponents protesting and admittedly attempting to block an "unjust" transfer of power. If "peaceful protest" vs "riotous coup" can hinge on the fact that your ideological allies could only have been there to "righteously have their voices heard" but ideological opponents must be there as "murderous usurpers", then your sympathetic reasoning might be better described as paranoid delusional projections. Let's remember that it was Eric Holder and Bill Clinton who pardoned a woman who literally bombed the capital building.
    - oneoff786 5y ago
      One of those groups marched to the capitol. Another one of those groups broke into the capitol building, stole things, destroyed things, fought with guards, smeared poop on the walls, audibly shouting about looking for specific senators. and at least one person has been found guilty of carrying a gun. Multiple people found to have discussed killing the senators.
Rebelgecko 5y ago
>Suppose the mob found Nancy Pelosi? If that happened, I think the most likely outcome is that there'd be more Ashli Babbits

gjsman-1000 5y ago

oneoff786 5y ago
> Remind me what the Secret Service exists for again, Protecting the president. The secret service does not protect senators > and who got the lawmakers out of there before the rioters came. Capitol Hill police I believe. > Maybe Democracy would have been closer to dying I’m pretty sure I explicitly said that wasn’t on the table. My point was that the rioters got very close. That is, one door away, then lured to other areas by a clever guard. I think it is fully plausible that they would have assassinated democratic political leaders if given the chance. Not ALL of the rioters, but certainly some.
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Well, then, it would have been a massacre, but democracy still wouldn't have died. We have a chain of command that has been clearly defined - President, then Vice President, then Speaker of the House, then all of the Secretaries in a specific order, and so on. Unless they managed to get the Army, or the Nuclear Codes, or something greater than just controlling a building, they would have needed to kill the President, the Vice President, and every single House and Senate member (including those not in the building) and then get control of the Army or Popular Support or something massive to have a shot. I don't think they were anywhere close with that.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    You keep framing this as either democracy dies or it’s a nonissue. Personally I think a mob massacre of political leaders is bad on its own. Ymmv.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - regularfry 5y ago
    This is begging the question, textbook. The whole point would be to install the President by non-democratic means.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Realistically what would have happened is many rioters en masse would have been killed by security forces which would have become a big political issue.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    I think if rioters were killed trying to breach the senator room it would be a lot less of a political issue, with them clearly being portrayed as villains even by republicans.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Given the martyr treatment Ashli Babbitt has gotten, I would not be so sure.

cscurmudgeon 5y ago

Didn't the BLM rioters also come close to Trump? Why was that different?

oneoff786 5y ago
Scale, context, size, and defense of the actions of the rioters mostly.
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    That some things are subjective does not make them without merit.
    - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
      > That some things are subjective does not make them without merit. Nice to see 1984's birth in action. As someone who escaped a socialist autocracy, this is chilling to US descending into the same thing.

yucky 5y ago

>I think it is probable she would have been killed. What leads you to call that probable? I don't think it's impossible, after all it's only been a few years since that Bernie supporter shot at all those Republican congressmen, and Scalise almost did die. But that guy was actually armed and went with that purpose, these goofs appear to have been unarmed protesters who turned into a mob. I know you don't need a gun to kill someone, I just find your assessment that it was probable she would be killed a stretch.

lapsedacademic 5y ago
> What leads you to call that probable? Because people with guns who said they wanted to kill her entered the capitol with their guns and started looking for her. E.g., from one charging document: "Thinking about heading over to Pelosi CUNT’s speech and putting a bullet in her noggin on Live TV [purple devil emoji]." Charges: Possession of Unregistered Firearms, Possession of Unregistered Ammunition, Possession of Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Devices. So... he had a gun, said he wanted to kill pelosi, and then broke into a federal building and started looking for her. He was probably just trolling and this is all a big over-reaction, right? /s > unarmed https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases > that Bernie supporter... the main different here is that I don't recall there being a systemic effort to defend him and explain that it's really no big deal.
- yucky 5y ago
  >entered the capitol with their guns Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody entered the Capitol with guns. I'm aware that sounds like downplaying the incident, which is not my intention. I just think accuracy matters. The guy you're referring to (who was thankfully charged), did not enter the Capitol with a gun, according to the charging document. What gave you the idea that he entered the Capitol with a gun, the charging document is pretty clear? >the main different here is that I don't recall there being a systemic effort to defend him and explain that it's really no big deal. The effort was just to blame Trump's rhetoric for that guys actions. Which, Trump's rhetoric was less than helpful to say the least, but that was a poor excuse for trying to murder a bunch of congresspeople. Alas, this is the problem with demanding accuracy. If someone says something false about a bad person or incident, we are unable to ask for accuracy unless we are willing to be seen as defending it.

whimsicalism 5y ago

> The rioters came fairly close to getting to the senators. Suppose the mob found Nancy Pelosi? "Fairly close" to me would likely involve more of the rioters being shot. The fact that so few were shot indicates that the state was largely keeping their gloves on, which they would not if there was any risk of a senator actually being killed.

oneoff786 5y ago
The rioters failed to find the senators. They were one door away, and a guard lured them in the wrong direction. I’m not sure how much of an armed guard presence was accompanying the senators at the time, though I believe it was not a large presence. Supposing they instead entered the room, it is probable to me that they would have been immediately shot. I doubt the rioters could have taken the room but who knows. In any case * I think the rioters would have killed some democratic leaders if given the opportunity * I think more gunshots would have occurred if the rioters went a different direction by chance * I think this is way, way too far already in terms of what is remotely ok.
- beerandt 5y ago
  And yet Democratics encouraged and even participated in blocking the Supreme Court confirmation vote using... a march to the capital and overrunning capital security forces and successfuy occupying every space they attempted to reach. Why shouldn't any of them been shot? Both were confirmations to the highest level of office in their respective branch of government and both were staged by political opponents protesting and admittedly attempting to block an "unjust" transfer of power. If "peaceful protest" vs "riotous coup" can hinge on the fact that your ideological allies could only have been there to "righteously have their voices heard" but ideological opponents must be there as "murderous usurpers", then your sympathetic reasoning might be better described as paranoid delusional projections. Let's remember that it was Eric Holder and Bill Clinton who pardoned a woman who literally bombed the capital building.
  - oneoff786 5y ago
    One of those groups marched to the capitol. Another one of those groups broke into the capitol building, stole things, destroyed things, fought with guards, smeared poop on the walls, audibly shouting about looking for specific senators. and at least one person has been found guilty of carrying a gun. Multiple people found to have discussed killing the senators.

Rebelgecko 5y ago

>Suppose the mob found Nancy Pelosi? If that happened, I think the most likely outcome is that there'd be more Ashli Babbits