4 ms·

When the author is sampling R sounds of the world, two prominent omissions come to mind: - American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vow

When the author is sampling R sounds of the world, two prominent omissions come to mind: - American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels. I think I may have also heard Australians do this? - I've heard Puerto Ricans when speaking Spanish do something close to what is described as a "Brazilian R". A /x/ type of sound where /r/ would be in other accents. Backed up here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_Spanish#Features https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rican_Spanish#Feature...

School-Cotton 5y ago
> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".
- SamBam 5y ago
  Repeating "butter" is actually a great way to teach people how to make the rolled R [r].
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    By "rolled r", do you mean the trill? The trill and flap are different sounds in some languages (for example, Spanish "perro" (dog) has the trill whereas "pero" (but) has the flap). The /t/ in Am.E. "butter" is the flap.
    - SamBam 5y ago
      I mean exactly the sound that is referred to as the "rolling R" or "[r]" in the original article. The flap is [ɾ]. In any case, as the sister comment says, the point is that in order to learn the rolling r (consciously, as an older person) you have to notice the flap, and repeated flapping can transfer into the rolled r. So, yes, you learn the flap first, but few people start out saying "I wish I could flap my rs," instead they're looking to learn how to roll them.
    - asveikau 5y ago
      If you start with a flap and add a little air and lengthen it, you get into trill territory. This is a good way to teach the trill. Once I recall I pronounced a drawn out /d/ when cold and startled, and a friend commented that I "rolled my D" and it was weird.
- FeteCommuniste 5y ago
  Has to be between vowels and at the start of an unstressed syllable, I believe. Compare "attic" to "attack," for example.
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    Great example -- I guess I stand corrected and it doesn't have to do with liquids at all!
- asveikau 5y ago
  Like another comment I can think of examples without a liquid following. "Latin" is one. (I have a distant memory of being called strange for saying that as [t]) I think I sometimes only do it if I'm talking fast. Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.
  - School-Cotton 5y ago
    For me the /t/ in Latin is a glottal stop. Where are you from? > Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign. I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure someone pronouncing the /t/ in "butter", "little", etc. as [t] would make me very confident that they weren't American.
    - asveikau 5y ago
      > Where are you from? I was born in Washington DC to a family that had recent roots all over Europe. And had some young interest and exposure to Spanish. I'm American, but my accent is a little all over the place. I don't get much grief over this in the northeast, but on the west coast people are pretty confused by the way I talk.
      - School-Cotton 5y ago
        I’m from Arizona (not the West Coast, but culturally and physically close enough). My mom would always try to correct my pronunciation of “Latin”, “mountain”, and similar words with a /t/ realized as a glottal stop. She’s from the East Coast, so indeed, maybe that pronunciation isn’t as common there.
        asveikau 5y ago
        Yeah. That amuses me. I'll need to be honest... When I hear people overdo the flap pronunciation of /t/ in those specific words, it triggers something judgemental in me. I've been on the west coast for 14 years now, so I think I've gotten over it somewhat.
School-Cotton 5y ago
Also, it's false that the alveolar approximant is the same as the retroflex (some Americans have the retroflex version; some don't). To be fair, they sound virtually identical (at least to me). Furthermore, it's extremely false to claim that either of these sounds is exclusive or nearly so to American English; they are present in many languages, including but not limited to various dialects of European languages, and also including Mandarin, which has several times more native speakers than Am.E. does.

School-Cotton 5y ago

> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".

SamBam 5y ago
Repeating "butter" is actually a great way to teach people how to make the rolled R [r].
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  By "rolled r", do you mean the trill? The trill and flap are different sounds in some languages (for example, Spanish "perro" (dog) has the trill whereas "pero" (but) has the flap). The /t/ in Am.E. "butter" is the flap.
  - SamBam 5y ago
    I mean exactly the sound that is referred to as the "rolling R" or "[r]" in the original article. The flap is [ɾ]. In any case, as the sister comment says, the point is that in order to learn the rolling r (consciously, as an older person) you have to notice the flap, and repeated flapping can transfer into the rolled r. So, yes, you learn the flap first, but few people start out saying "I wish I could flap my rs," instead they're looking to learn how to roll them.
  - asveikau 5y ago
    If you start with a flap and add a little air and lengthen it, you get into trill territory. This is a good way to teach the trill. Once I recall I pronounced a drawn out /d/ when cold and startled, and a friend commented that I "rolled my D" and it was weird.
FeteCommuniste 5y ago
Has to be between vowels and at the start of an unstressed syllable, I believe. Compare "attic" to "attack," for example.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  Great example -- I guess I stand corrected and it doesn't have to do with liquids at all!
asveikau 5y ago
Like another comment I can think of examples without a liquid following. "Latin" is one. (I have a distant memory of being called strange for saying that as [t]) I think I sometimes only do it if I'm talking fast. Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.
- School-Cotton 5y ago
  For me the /t/ in Latin is a glottal stop. Where are you from? > Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign. I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure someone pronouncing the /t/ in "butter", "little", etc. as [t] would make me very confident that they weren't American.
  - asveikau 5y ago
    > Where are you from? I was born in Washington DC to a family that had recent roots all over Europe. And had some young interest and exposure to Spanish. I'm American, but my accent is a little all over the place. I don't get much grief over this in the northeast, but on the west coast people are pretty confused by the way I talk.
    - School-Cotton 5y ago
      I’m from Arizona (not the West Coast, but culturally and physically close enough). My mom would always try to correct my pronunciation of “Latin”, “mountain”, and similar words with a /t/ realized as a glottal stop. She’s from the East Coast, so indeed, maybe that pronunciation isn’t as common there.
      - asveikau 5y ago
        Yeah. That amuses me. I'll need to be honest... When I hear people overdo the flap pronunciation of /t/ in those specific words, it triggers something judgemental in me. I've been on the west coast for 14 years now, so I think I've gotten over it somewhat.

School-Cotton 5y ago

Also, it's false that the alveolar approximant is the same as the retroflex (some Americans have the retroflex version; some don't). To be fair, they sound virtually identical (at least to me). Furthermore, it's extremely false to claim that either of these sounds is exclusive or nearly so to American English; they are present in many languages, including but not limited to various dialects of European languages, and also including Mandarin, which has several times more native speakers than Am.E. does.