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What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine tha

What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? I think that's not very good math Because that's one of the easiest arguments to dispel. No one should be avoiding the vaccine for that reason. Not even those who had the disease once or twice already.

ls15 5y ago
He is a male under 40, isn't he? He already had covid.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  So he took the risk of myocarditis from Covid-19, over the risk of myocarditis from vaccine once already. That was a poor choice. He still faces the same risk in the future. He still has the same choice. It doesn't change because you are a healthy young person. The risk of this complication is higher from the disease than the vaccine in every group, (the male under 40 doesn't really make a big difference - there you have about a breakeven risk)
  - ls15 5y ago
    > He still faces the same risk in the future. He surely has some immunity now, no?
    - alkonaut 5y ago
      Yes but that immunity wanes regardless of whether it's natural or from vaccine.
      - ls15 5y ago
        And so does the severity of the disease, look at omicron. The benefits of the vaccine over a natural infection get weaker by the day, especially because vaccine efficacy is not great anymore. Particularly too weak for justifying mandates, in my opinion.
- _gohp 5y ago
  I am a fierce anti conspiracy person, but this covid situation is having me thinking. They say natural resistance is better or equal than from the vaccine, everyone apart from anti vaxxers like Djokovic has had a shot or two or three, there's no herd immunity or herd protection Can someone explain the math to me? Also people said the regular flu does not exist anymore, give or take, because everyone is wearing masks. Nothing could be further from the truth, full family had flu twice now, me three times(never had that before in my.life, once a year max was normal) and I see the regular flu wave still existing. I haven't had covid that I know of, did tests and am vaccinated.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    > They say natural resistance is better or equal than from the vaccine Who are "they" and what exactly are "they" saying? I think there is a consensus that even if you had the disease, it's wise choice to get vaccinated. Protection from vaccination and recovery is better than protection from only one of them, as far as I understand it. > Can someone explain the math to me? What math? > Also people said the regular flu does not exist anymore Seasonal flu will of course continue to be a thing. But restrictions obviously meant that last years flu season was kept low in many places around the world. This however means that there could be a worse wave coming this year (and it has happened too in many places - we are in the flu season in the wintery part of the world now). In places with good mask adherence, no big public events and so on, obviously ALL respiratory diseases will have a harder time spreading. But these restrictions are - hopefully - temporary, The flu will be fine.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      Can't speak for the whole world, but in Canada my experience is that they're not testing for the flu anymore. Only COVID. In years past if you went to the doctor during flu season they'd do a throat swab for flu. Now it's only for COVID. I know lots of people who were sick but only tested for COVID. One of my friends was out of work for a month with a bacterial infection they missed for 2+ weeks because they only tested for COVID....
      - 5y ago
ls15 5y ago
> What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. Politicians are no medical doctors and they should have no power to prescribe me a medical treatment. If you mix science with politics, you get politics. I can see, how the vaccine may be utterly pointless for Djokovic, while it may be very important for others.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  > No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. And I absolutely agree. Apart from specific situations (e.g healthcare workers) no one should be required to get the vaccine. But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life. > I can see, how the vaccine may be utterly pointless for Djokovic, while it may be very important for others. I don’t think it’s pointless. Protection from vaccine helps even in the recovered, healthy and young. But whether he should get it or not isn’t really relevant, what’s relevant is that Australia required it and they can’t exempt him due to past infection (apparently). Also, one shouldn’t let an antivaxer free from criticism just because he got the disease and no longer feels he needs the vaccine. He was against it to begin with.
  - ls15 5y ago
    > But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life. I don't think that makes sense. If you cannot see your family again without vaccination, that is a clear mandate to me. If it is not based on clear scientific evidence that shows that there was no better option, then the mandate is arbitrary. Arbitrary mandates are tyrannical. If Djokovic only has the choice between getting vaccinated or to give up his title, and if that mandated choice was not justified on a scientific basis, then that mandate was arbitrary and hence tyrannical. > Also, one shouldn’t let an antivaxer free from criticism just because he got the disease and no longer feels he needs the vaccine. He was against it to begin with. I think what we are experiencing right now, goes way beyond criticism. Instead of demonizing people with a certain belief (and treating rational critics as collateral), people should try much harder to demonstrate the benefits of the vaccine in an intellectually honest way. And they should be brutally honest regarding side effects. This is almost not happening, as far as I can see.

ls15 5y ago

He is a male under 40, isn't he? He already had covid.

alkonaut 5y ago
So he took the risk of myocarditis from Covid-19, over the risk of myocarditis from vaccine once already. That was a poor choice. He still faces the same risk in the future. He still has the same choice. It doesn't change because you are a healthy young person. The risk of this complication is higher from the disease than the vaccine in every group, (the male under 40 doesn't really make a big difference - there you have about a breakeven risk)
- ls15 5y ago
  > He still faces the same risk in the future. He surely has some immunity now, no?
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    Yes but that immunity wanes regardless of whether it's natural or from vaccine.
    - ls15 5y ago
      And so does the severity of the disease, look at omicron. The benefits of the vaccine over a natural infection get weaker by the day, especially because vaccine efficacy is not great anymore. Particularly too weak for justifying mandates, in my opinion.
_gohp 5y ago
I am a fierce anti conspiracy person, but this covid situation is having me thinking. They say natural resistance is better or equal than from the vaccine, everyone apart from anti vaxxers like Djokovic has had a shot or two or three, there's no herd immunity or herd protection Can someone explain the math to me? Also people said the regular flu does not exist anymore, give or take, because everyone is wearing masks. Nothing could be further from the truth, full family had flu twice now, me three times(never had that before in my.life, once a year max was normal) and I see the regular flu wave still existing. I haven't had covid that I know of, did tests and am vaccinated.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  > They say natural resistance is better or equal than from the vaccine Who are "they" and what exactly are "they" saying? I think there is a consensus that even if you had the disease, it's wise choice to get vaccinated. Protection from vaccination and recovery is better than protection from only one of them, as far as I understand it. > Can someone explain the math to me? What math? > Also people said the regular flu does not exist anymore Seasonal flu will of course continue to be a thing. But restrictions obviously meant that last years flu season was kept low in many places around the world. This however means that there could be a worse wave coming this year (and it has happened too in many places - we are in the flu season in the wintery part of the world now). In places with good mask adherence, no big public events and so on, obviously ALL respiratory diseases will have a harder time spreading. But these restrictions are - hopefully - temporary, The flu will be fine.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Can't speak for the whole world, but in Canada my experience is that they're not testing for the flu anymore. Only COVID. In years past if you went to the doctor during flu season they'd do a throat swab for flu. Now it's only for COVID. I know lots of people who were sick but only tested for COVID. One of my friends was out of work for a month with a bacterial infection they missed for 2+ weeks because they only tested for COVID....
    - 5y ago

ls15 5y ago

> What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. Politicians are no medical doctors and they should have no power to prescribe me a medical treatment. If you mix science with politics, you get politics. I can see, how the vaccine may be utterly pointless for Djokovic, while it may be very important for others.

alkonaut 5y ago
> No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. And I absolutely agree. Apart from specific situations (e.g healthcare workers) no one should be required to get the vaccine. But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life. > I can see, how the vaccine may be utterly pointless for Djokovic, while it may be very important for others. I don’t think it’s pointless. Protection from vaccine helps even in the recovered, healthy and young. But whether he should get it or not isn’t really relevant, what’s relevant is that Australia required it and they can’t exempt him due to past infection (apparently). Also, one shouldn’t let an antivaxer free from criticism just because he got the disease and no longer feels he needs the vaccine. He was against it to begin with.
- ls15 5y ago
  > But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life. I don't think that makes sense. If you cannot see your family again without vaccination, that is a clear mandate to me. If it is not based on clear scientific evidence that shows that there was no better option, then the mandate is arbitrary. Arbitrary mandates are tyrannical. If Djokovic only has the choice between getting vaccinated or to give up his title, and if that mandated choice was not justified on a scientific basis, then that mandate was arbitrary and hence tyrannical. > Also, one shouldn’t let an antivaxer free from criticism just because he got the disease and no longer feels he needs the vaccine. He was against it to begin with. I think what we are experiencing right now, goes way beyond criticism. Instead of demonizing people with a certain belief (and treating rational critics as collateral), people should try much harder to demonstrate the benefits of the vaccine in an intellectually honest way. And they should be brutally honest regarding side effects. This is almost not happening, as far as I can see.