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I live in a 3-rd world country that has like 40 times less GDP per capita than the United States. The vast majority of our people work in the fields growing cro

by donny2018 5y ago

I live in a 3-rd world country that has like 40 times less GDP per capita than the United States. The vast majority of our people work in the fields growing crops and are much poorer than the poorest communities in the US. Our people have to survive, like for real. By your logic, theft, crime, murders and robberies should be rampant in my country because they “have to”. But my country is much safer in that regard that the US. Because we don’t “have to”. People in need do whatever they can to find a job. Those who can’t find a job, they go to Russia and find a job there. In no way in our culture it is considered acceptable to steal even if you “have to”. People are not animals. Social good, social relationships, morals, good parenting and family values are real things. I’m not talking about those incapable to work, of course. Funny thing is, our government gives shelter to such people, and they don’t live in the streets as well. United States is a paradoxical country.

gonehome 5y ago
Imo the comment you’re replying to is a kind of progressive left-wing university faculty lounge flavor of upper middle class politics and is not representative of the vast majority of Americans (but is overrepresented online). I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault.
- kogepathic 5y ago
  > I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault. Jail isn't some magical free solution to your crime problems. Would Americans still be so eager to imprison someone if they knew that the cost to incarcerate someone is ~$36k/yr? [1] The government defines poverty as $12k/yr for individuals [2], which is three times less than the annual cost to incarcerate someone! Is imprisoning someone at the taxpayer cost of ~$36k/yr a sustainable model? At what point does America have a conversation about the cost of imprisonment versus the alternatives like raising the poverty line, raising minimum wage, or implementing social programs? [1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09062/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09... [2] https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/poverty-guidelines/prior-hhs-poverty-guidelines-federal-register-references/2021-poverty-guidelines https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/povert...
  - ramoz 5y ago
    Yes, literally still imprison the people committing these crimes.
  - waynesonfire 5y ago
    prisons create jobs while handouts incentivize poverty.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    What is the cost of not imprisoning criminals? How much economic damage is caused by shutting down stores that keep getting looted?
  - gonehome 5y ago
    You can advocate for policy that works to improve things that lead to increased crime and be strict about enforcing the law when crime occurs. While this doesn't necessarily fit cleanly into existing partisan politics, it is possible. Excusing crime because of these other things I think is patronizing to the majority of poor people that are not criminals. It's also a luxury belief imo in that the majority of victims are ethical people in poor communities getting hurt by the criminals who mostly target them (which is why you see a lot of data in poor communities asking for increased policing). I'd guess it's a view formed from a lack of interaction with the people committing these crimes (in addition to the victims) too. Anyone can rationalize criminal behavior and make it not their fault. I don't have much tolerance for this and don't think society should really either. Discretion exists and context does matter, but people have agency and are responsible for the choices they make.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Yes, that was the point of the original post. The further point was that this idea is entirely counterproductive.
varnaud 5y ago
You missed half of parent logic. >it's okay because society is stacked against them. If you can't find a job in the US, you won't go to another country to find one. After all, you're already in the "best country in the world". The streets are accepted as the home of failed people (but only if we can't see them). Medical care is provided only to people who can pay for it. That's only fair. Also racism was solved with Obama, so just pull yourself by your bootstrap like everyone else. Just work multiple jobs if you can't afford rent, maybe then you'll save enough to pay for education and get a higher wage job or start your own business. /s

gonehome 5y ago

Imo the comment you’re replying to is a kind of progressive left-wing university faculty lounge flavor of upper middle class politics and is not representative of the vast majority of Americans (but is overrepresented online). I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault.

kogepathic 5y ago
> I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault. Jail isn't some magical free solution to your crime problems. Would Americans still be so eager to imprison someone if they knew that the cost to incarcerate someone is ~$36k/yr? [1] The government defines poverty as $12k/yr for individuals [2], which is three times less than the annual cost to incarcerate someone! Is imprisoning someone at the taxpayer cost of ~$36k/yr a sustainable model? At what point does America have a conversation about the cost of imprisonment versus the alternatives like raising the poverty line, raising minimum wage, or implementing social programs? [1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09062/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09... [2] https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/poverty-guidelines/prior-hhs-poverty-guidelines-federal-register-references/2021-poverty-guidelines https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/povert...
- ramoz 5y ago
  Yes, literally still imprison the people committing these crimes.
- waynesonfire 5y ago
  prisons create jobs while handouts incentivize poverty.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  What is the cost of not imprisoning criminals? How much economic damage is caused by shutting down stores that keep getting looted?
- gonehome 5y ago
  You can advocate for policy that works to improve things that lead to increased crime and be strict about enforcing the law when crime occurs. While this doesn't necessarily fit cleanly into existing partisan politics, it is possible. Excusing crime because of these other things I think is patronizing to the majority of poor people that are not criminals. It's also a luxury belief imo in that the majority of victims are ethical people in poor communities getting hurt by the criminals who mostly target them (which is why you see a lot of data in poor communities asking for increased policing). I'd guess it's a view formed from a lack of interaction with the people committing these crimes (in addition to the victims) too. Anyone can rationalize criminal behavior and make it not their fault. I don't have much tolerance for this and don't think society should really either. Discretion exists and context does matter, but people have agency and are responsible for the choices they make.
user-the-name 5y ago
Yes, that was the point of the original post. The further point was that this idea is entirely counterproductive.

varnaud 5y ago

You missed half of parent logic. >it's okay because society is stacked against them. If you can't find a job in the US, you won't go to another country to find one. After all, you're already in the "best country in the world". The streets are accepted as the home of failed people (but only if we can't see them). Medical care is provided only to people who can pay for it. That's only fair. Also racism was solved with Obama, so just pull yourself by your bootstrap like everyone else. Just work multiple jobs if you can't afford rent, maybe then you'll save enough to pay for education and get a higher wage job or start your own business. /s