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Anyone who thinks Djokovic is at fault. I don't support executive power bypassing courts but I think this doesn't diminish the merit of the winner. He was more

Anyone who thinks Djokovic is at fault. I don't support executive power bypassing courts but I think this doesn't diminish the merit of the winner. He was more intelligent.

ls15 5y ago
Mandating that players who are in the highest risk group for myocarditis must be vaccinated had no good basis to begin with
- Pungsnigel 5y ago
  He just had Covid as well? So most likely he is better protected than vaccinated people.
- linspace 5y ago
  I have no idea, I'm no doctor. I find it surprising that a doctor would advise him to play at a competitive level nevertheless if he has some cardiac problem but who knows. Anyway I want to say that as a matter of fact if a court allows him to enter and play he should be allowed. Not interfering with court decisions is much more important than whether or not a player plays tennis, I don't care if it's an important player on an important tournament, because for me it's not important. I think also he should not enter if he is not vaccinated but for me the "why" is much more important than the "what". We always ask politicians "what" are they going to do, not "why" and "how" and so we keep rewarding luck. So the thing is not if politicians did this or that when the pandemic started, the question is if they were motivated by political interest or followed doctors advice. In this case politicians should follow courts decisions.
  - ls15 5y ago
    > he has some cardiac problem but who knows He doesn't. He want's to avoid them. For males under 40 the risk for getting myocarditis is higher than for getting it from covid. That has been discussed on HN.
    - Gibbon1 5y ago
      If that bothers him perhaps he should stay out of Australia.
      - ls15 5y ago
        That would be ok, if there were an option for him to defend his title somewhere else or at a different time. This way it is like: "Take this vaccine against a strain that is not spreading anymore, that you also already had, while we cannot really prove efficacy against the current dominant strain and where you have a higher risk of side effects than others, or just give up your title. Your choice." They are blackmailing him.
    - alkonaut 5y ago
      In the past when your risk of getting the disease was perhaps smaller maybe you could start doing this math. Now that it's clear that everyone will get the disease (multiple times) it's not so easy. Not least because even if you are a "make under 40", you eventually won't be. Besides there are numerous other side effects from the virus than myocarditis. Focusinig on this particular one and ignoring all the others is pretty strange. Relevant passage from the article I believe you are refering to shows that the disk is first of all extremely low in all groups, and second it's not very different in the younger group. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full-text https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v... In males aged less than 40 years, we estimated an additional 3 (95%CI 1, 5) and 12 (95%CI 1, 13) myocarditis events per million in the 1-28 days following a first dose of BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273, respectively; an additional 14 (95%CI 8, 17), 12 (95%CI 1, 7) and 101 (95%CI 95, 104) myocarditis events following a second dose of ChAdOx1, BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273, respectively; and an additional 13 (95%CI 7, 15) myocarditis events following a third dose of BNT162b2 vaccine. This compares with 7 (95%CI 2, 11) additional myocarditis events in the 1-28 days following a positive SARS-CoV-2 test. In older males, we estimated 3 (95% CI 2, 4) and 73 (95% 71, 75) additional myocarditis events per million following a third dose of BNT162b2 and a positive SARS-CoV-2 test, respectively.
      - ls15 5y ago
- alkonaut 5y ago
  What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? I think that's not very good math Because that's one of the easiest arguments to dispel. No one should be avoiding the vaccine for that reason. Not even those who had the disease once or twice already.
  - ls15 5y ago
    He is a male under 40, isn't he? He already had covid.
    - alkonaut 5y ago
      So he took the risk of myocarditis from Covid-19, over the risk of myocarditis from vaccine once already. That was a poor choice. He still faces the same risk in the future. He still has the same choice. It doesn't change because you are a healthy young person. The risk of this complication is higher from the disease than the vaccine in every group, (the male under 40 doesn't really make a big difference - there you have about a breakeven risk)
      - ls15 5y ago
        > He still faces the same risk in the future. He surely has some immunity now, no?
        alkonaut 5y ago
        Yes but that immunity wanes regardless of whether it's natural or from vaccine.
        ls15 5y ago
        And so does the severity of the disease, look at omicron. The benefits of the vaccine over a natural infection get weaker by the day, especially because vaccine efficacy is not great anymore. Particularly too weak for justifying mandates, in my opinion.
Broken_Hippo 5y ago
Why wouldn't he be? He could have just gotten vaccinated. And then, he could have not lied to them about his travel. I mean, seriously, most folks that lie to immigration/border security get deported and aren't allowed back in. They are used as political pawns, too, but simply are a number instead of a person. I don't know why this man is supposed to be treated differently.
- ls15 5y ago
  > He could have just gotten vaccinated. He could have just gotten carreer-ending myocarditis from the vaccination. The risk in his cohort to get it from vaccination is higher than getting it from covid, which he already had. How is that mandate justified?
  - fabian2k 5y ago
    The risk of getting a myocarditis from COVID itself is higher for him, if we compare the Biontech/Pfizer vaccine. Only for Moderna for people below 40 the risk was higher for myocarditis, and even that comparison doesn't include all the other risks from a COVID infection.
    - ls15 5y ago
      Is he not a male under 40?
      - fabian2k 5y ago
        He can take Biontech/Pfizer and not Moderna (which is also the recommendation in some countries for younger people)
        ls15 5y ago
        Just for correctness: the myocarditis risk for Pfizer second and third dose exceeds the myocarditis risk from covid for this group as well.
        5y ago

Anyone who thinks Djokovic is at fault. I don't support executive power bypassing courts but I think this doesn't diminish the merit of the winner. He was more intelligent.

ls15 5y ago

Mandating that players who are in the highest risk group for myocarditis must be vaccinated had no good basis to begin with

Pungsnigel 5y ago
He just had Covid as well? So most likely he is better protected than vaccinated people.
linspace 5y ago
I have no idea, I'm no doctor. I find it surprising that a doctor would advise him to play at a competitive level nevertheless if he has some cardiac problem but who knows. Anyway I want to say that as a matter of fact if a court allows him to enter and play he should be allowed. Not interfering with court decisions is much more important than whether or not a player plays tennis, I don't care if it's an important player on an important tournament, because for me it's not important. I think also he should not enter if he is not vaccinated but for me the "why" is much more important than the "what". We always ask politicians "what" are they going to do, not "why" and "how" and so we keep rewarding luck. So the thing is not if politicians did this or that when the pandemic started, the question is if they were motivated by political interest or followed doctors advice. In this case politicians should follow courts decisions.
- ls15 5y ago
  > he has some cardiac problem but who knows He doesn't. He want's to avoid them. For males under 40 the risk for getting myocarditis is higher than for getting it from covid. That has been discussed on HN.
  - Gibbon1 5y ago
    If that bothers him perhaps he should stay out of Australia.
    - ls15 5y ago
      That would be ok, if there were an option for him to defend his title somewhere else or at a different time. This way it is like: "Take this vaccine against a strain that is not spreading anymore, that you also already had, while we cannot really prove efficacy against the current dominant strain and where you have a higher risk of side effects than others, or just give up your title. Your choice." They are blackmailing him.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    In the past when your risk of getting the disease was perhaps smaller maybe you could start doing this math. Now that it's clear that everyone will get the disease (multiple times) it's not so easy. Not least because even if you are a "make under 40", you eventually won't be. Besides there are numerous other side effects from the virus than myocarditis. Focusinig on this particular one and ignoring all the others is pretty strange. Relevant passage from the article I believe you are refering to shows that the disk is first of all extremely low in all groups, and second it's not very different in the younger group. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v1.full-text https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v... In males aged less than 40 years, we estimated an additional 3 (95%CI 1, 5) and 12 (95%CI 1, 13) myocarditis events per million in the 1-28 days following a first dose of BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273, respectively; an additional 14 (95%CI 8, 17), 12 (95%CI 1, 7) and 101 (95%CI 95, 104) myocarditis events following a second dose of ChAdOx1, BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273, respectively; and an additional 13 (95%CI 7, 15) myocarditis events following a third dose of BNT162b2 vaccine. This compares with 7 (95%CI 2, 11) additional myocarditis events in the 1-28 days following a positive SARS-CoV-2 test. In older males, we estimated 3 (95% CI 2, 4) and 73 (95% 71, 75) additional myocarditis events per million following a third dose of BNT162b2 and a positive SARS-CoV-2 test, respectively.
    - ls15 5y ago
alkonaut 5y ago
What are you saying? That it makes sense for anyone in any age group to avoid the vaccine because the risk of myocarditis is so much higher from the vaccine than from the disease? I think that's not very good math Because that's one of the easiest arguments to dispel. No one should be avoiding the vaccine for that reason. Not even those who had the disease once or twice already.
- ls15 5y ago
  He is a male under 40, isn't he? He already had covid.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    So he took the risk of myocarditis from Covid-19, over the risk of myocarditis from vaccine once already. That was a poor choice. He still faces the same risk in the future. He still has the same choice. It doesn't change because you are a healthy young person. The risk of this complication is higher from the disease than the vaccine in every group, (the male under 40 doesn't really make a big difference - there you have about a breakeven risk)
    - ls15 5y ago
      > He still faces the same risk in the future. He surely has some immunity now, no?
      - alkonaut 5y ago
        Yes but that immunity wanes regardless of whether it's natural or from vaccine.
        ls15 5y ago
        And so does the severity of the disease, look at omicron. The benefits of the vaccine over a natural infection get weaker by the day, especially because vaccine efficacy is not great anymore. Particularly too weak for justifying mandates, in my opinion.

Broken_Hippo 5y ago

Why wouldn't he be? He could have just gotten vaccinated. And then, he could have not lied to them about his travel. I mean, seriously, most folks that lie to immigration/border security get deported and aren't allowed back in. They are used as political pawns, too, but simply are a number instead of a person. I don't know why this man is supposed to be treated differently.

ls15 5y ago
> He could have just gotten vaccinated. He could have just gotten carreer-ending myocarditis from the vaccination. The risk in his cohort to get it from vaccination is higher than getting it from covid, which he already had. How is that mandate justified?
- fabian2k 5y ago
  The risk of getting a myocarditis from COVID itself is higher for him, if we compare the Biontech/Pfizer vaccine. Only for Moderna for people below 40 the risk was higher for myocarditis, and even that comparison doesn't include all the other risks from a COVID infection.
  - ls15 5y ago
    Is he not a male under 40?
    - fabian2k 5y ago
      He can take Biontech/Pfizer and not Moderna (which is also the recommendation in some countries for younger people)
      - ls15 5y ago
        Just for correctness: the myocarditis risk for Pfizer second and third dose exceeds the myocarditis risk from covid for this group as well.
      - 5y ago