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You want to know why I don't steal? It's because I don't have to. I have sufficient security of income and opportunity that it's not necessary. I'm not braggin

You want to know why I don't steal? It's because I don't have to. I have sufficient security of income and opportunity that it's not necessary. I'm not bragging, though, what I'm getting at is that you're missing a huge part of why people steal - maybe even the largest part: because they feel they have to survive, or because it's okay because society is stacked against them. This is what above was talking about when talking about fixing root causes. If you can ensure that people have shelter, food, safety, security, and belonging, you'll generally find that you don't need to _morally re-educate_ them, they won't have the impetus to steal.

bart_spoon 5y ago
Are you under the impression that white collar crime doesn’t exist and there’s never been anyone above the poverty line to commit theft or fraud? One doesn’t need to be impoverished to steal. Some subset of individuals will always be driven to obtain “more”, even if through illicit means.
hyperman1 5y ago
What you're saying is, if the crooks have their basic necessities fulfilled, they would become politicians and CEO's instead of thieves? Only half joking. You're right that you can fix 90% of crimes your way. But there is a group of people that, for some reason, just want to see the world burn or feel the power to make others miserable. We need to deal with them somehow.
- mtsr 5y ago
  Sure, but the US probably doesn’t need to have (one of the?) highest prison populations per capita in the world.
gonehome 5y ago
There are a lot of poor people who are not thieves. I’ve always felt this framing condescends to them. Sure, there’s certainly more incentive to steal at the academic extremes (bread for your starving family), but people raiding trains for packages is something else. There should be police response to this, and people doing it should get charged.
- Someone 5y ago
  I don’t see anybody arguing that people doing this shouldn’t get charged. I do read people (rightfully, IMO) claiming that societal changes can significantly decrease the number of people doing this. I don’t believe USA has so many people in prison because its population _is_ more criminal than that of other countries.
  - bart_spoon 5y ago
    > I don’t believe USA has so many people in prison because its population _is_ more criminal than that of other countries. I do. I’ve lived in some foreign countries and have come to realize that culture plays just as much if not more of a role in crime as material conditions. America has some toxic aspects to our culture that contribute to our population being more likely to commit crimes. We are hyper individualist, and more violent across all socioeconomic levels.
    - Someone 5y ago
      I think we agree. I wasn’t clear enough, but I wrote the underscores in “its population _is_ more criminal” to implicitly contrast it with “its population _behaves_ more criminal”. It certainly does the latter, but that doesn’t imply the former. Simplifying things, the USA tends to think that all people who _do_ crimes _are_ criminals and, hence, should be locked up in order to decrease the amount of crime, while other countries think circumstances may have made them perform crimes, and changing circumstances may be the best way to decrease crime because it’s cheaper and/or leads to a happier population. (In general, I think (again simplifying things), the USA prefers sending in the cavalry to save the day over doing things to prevent the need for a cavalry. You see that in infrastructure maintenance, reactions to natural disasters, and in the way it does diplomacy in the middle east, too. California is somewhat of an exception there. It invests heavily preparing for the big one)
  - gonehome 5y ago
    > "I don’t see anybody arguing that people doing this shouldn’t get charged." This comment is basically arguing that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29932479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29932479 They frame it a little indirectly, but it's the underlying core of their point. You can advocate for policy that reduces crime while still enforcing laws against criminals and not excusing the criminal behavior.
donny2018 5y ago
I live in a 3-rd world country that has like 40 times less GDP per capita than the United States. The vast majority of our people work in the fields growing crops and are much poorer than the poorest communities in the US. Our people have to survive, like for real. By your logic, theft, crime, murders and robberies should be rampant in my country because they “have to”. But my country is much safer in that regard that the US. Because we don’t “have to”. People in need do whatever they can to find a job. Those who can’t find a job, they go to Russia and find a job there. In no way in our culture it is considered acceptable to steal even if you “have to”. People are not animals. Social good, social relationships, morals, good parenting and family values are real things. I’m not talking about those incapable to work, of course. Funny thing is, our government gives shelter to such people, and they don’t live in the streets as well. United States is a paradoxical country.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Imo the comment you’re replying to is a kind of progressive left-wing university faculty lounge flavor of upper middle class politics and is not representative of the vast majority of Americans (but is overrepresented online). I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault.
  - kogepathic 5y ago
    > I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault. Jail isn't some magical free solution to your crime problems. Would Americans still be so eager to imprison someone if they knew that the cost to incarcerate someone is ~$36k/yr? [1] The government defines poverty as $12k/yr for individuals [2], which is three times less than the annual cost to incarcerate someone! Is imprisoning someone at the taxpayer cost of ~$36k/yr a sustainable model? At what point does America have a conversation about the cost of imprisonment versus the alternatives like raising the poverty line, raising minimum wage, or implementing social programs? [1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09062/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09... [2] https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/poverty-guidelines/prior-hhs-poverty-guidelines-federal-register-references/2021-poverty-guidelines https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/povert...
SamReidHughes 5y ago
The baseline wage for people able-bodied enough to raid a train is $32K/year in Southern California.
nitrogen 5y ago
Respect for society, or lack thereof, happens at all levels. People partying and cheating their way through college, or running billion dollar ponzi schemes, aren't doing so because they have to survive, but the root cause is the same.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bart_spoon 5y ago

Are you under the impression that white collar crime doesn’t exist and there’s never been anyone above the poverty line to commit theft or fraud? One doesn’t need to be impoverished to steal. Some subset of individuals will always be driven to obtain “more”, even if through illicit means.

hyperman1 5y ago

What you're saying is, if the crooks have their basic necessities fulfilled, they would become politicians and CEO's instead of thieves? Only half joking. You're right that you can fix 90% of crimes your way. But there is a group of people that, for some reason, just want to see the world burn or feel the power to make others miserable. We need to deal with them somehow.

mtsr 5y ago
Sure, but the US probably doesn’t need to have (one of the?) highest prison populations per capita in the world.

gonehome 5y ago

There are a lot of poor people who are not thieves. I’ve always felt this framing condescends to them. Sure, there’s certainly more incentive to steal at the academic extremes (bread for your starving family), but people raiding trains for packages is something else. There should be police response to this, and people doing it should get charged.

Someone 5y ago
I don’t see anybody arguing that people doing this shouldn’t get charged. I do read people (rightfully, IMO) claiming that societal changes can significantly decrease the number of people doing this. I don’t believe USA has so many people in prison because its population _is_ more criminal than that of other countries.
- bart_spoon 5y ago
  > I don’t believe USA has so many people in prison because its population _is_ more criminal than that of other countries. I do. I’ve lived in some foreign countries and have come to realize that culture plays just as much if not more of a role in crime as material conditions. America has some toxic aspects to our culture that contribute to our population being more likely to commit crimes. We are hyper individualist, and more violent across all socioeconomic levels.
  - Someone 5y ago
    I think we agree. I wasn’t clear enough, but I wrote the underscores in “its population _is_ more criminal” to implicitly contrast it with “its population _behaves_ more criminal”. It certainly does the latter, but that doesn’t imply the former. Simplifying things, the USA tends to think that all people who _do_ crimes _are_ criminals and, hence, should be locked up in order to decrease the amount of crime, while other countries think circumstances may have made them perform crimes, and changing circumstances may be the best way to decrease crime because it’s cheaper and/or leads to a happier population. (In general, I think (again simplifying things), the USA prefers sending in the cavalry to save the day over doing things to prevent the need for a cavalry. You see that in infrastructure maintenance, reactions to natural disasters, and in the way it does diplomacy in the middle east, too. California is somewhat of an exception there. It invests heavily preparing for the big one)
- gonehome 5y ago
  > "I don’t see anybody arguing that people doing this shouldn’t get charged." This comment is basically arguing that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29932479 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29932479 They frame it a little indirectly, but it's the underlying core of their point. You can advocate for policy that reduces crime while still enforcing laws against criminals and not excusing the criminal behavior.

donny2018 5y ago

I live in a 3-rd world country that has like 40 times less GDP per capita than the United States. The vast majority of our people work in the fields growing crops and are much poorer than the poorest communities in the US. Our people have to survive, like for real. By your logic, theft, crime, murders and robberies should be rampant in my country because they “have to”. But my country is much safer in that regard that the US. Because we don’t “have to”. People in need do whatever they can to find a job. Those who can’t find a job, they go to Russia and find a job there. In no way in our culture it is considered acceptable to steal even if you “have to”. People are not animals. Social good, social relationships, morals, good parenting and family values are real things. I’m not talking about those incapable to work, of course. Funny thing is, our government gives shelter to such people, and they don’t live in the streets as well. United States is a paradoxical country.

gonehome 5y ago
Imo the comment you’re replying to is a kind of progressive left-wing university faculty lounge flavor of upper middle class politics and is not representative of the vast majority of Americans (but is overrepresented online). I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault.
- kogepathic 5y ago
  > I’d suspect most Americans (across the political spectrum) would see these train robberies and think “these people should go to jail”, rather than moralizing about why it’s not their fault. Jail isn't some magical free solution to your crime problems. Would Americans still be so eager to imprison someone if they knew that the cost to incarcerate someone is ~$36k/yr? [1] The government defines poverty as $12k/yr for individuals [2], which is three times less than the annual cost to incarcerate someone! Is imprisoning someone at the taxpayer cost of ~$36k/yr a sustainable model? At what point does America have a conversation about the cost of imprisonment versus the alternatives like raising the poverty line, raising minimum wage, or implementing social programs? [1] https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09062/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/30/2018-09... [2] https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/poverty-guidelines/prior-hhs-poverty-guidelines-federal-register-references/2021-poverty-guidelines https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/povert...

SamReidHughes 5y ago

The baseline wage for people able-bodied enough to raid a train is $32K/year in Southern California.

nitrogen 5y ago

Respect for society, or lack thereof, happens at all levels. People partying and cheating their way through college, or running billion dollar ponzi schemes, aren't doing so because they have to survive, but the root cause is the same.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]