5 ms·

The same thing has been happening in SF with homelessness. A lot of people think they should go to prison or be displaced somewhere else. It’s like refusing to

by baby 5y ago

The same thing has been happening in SF with homelessness. A lot of people think they should go to prison or be displaced somewhere else. It’s like refusing to accept that there’s a root cause.

dkdbejwi383 5y ago
If you're like some of my older relatives, people choose to become "beggars" because they "want something for nothing" and would rather do that than work a job and live in stable accommodation.
- barbacoa 5y ago
  In Austin Texas when they legalized urban camping the short term effect was the homeless shelters and transitional housing programs cleared out in favor of camping in the posh downtown parks. There was a sudden increase in young rastafarian looking white kids living on the streets. When the ban was reinstated all those newcomers just melted away to wherever they came from. Didn't seem like that bad of a life while it lasted, being in the tourist areas crime was never bad enough to be afraid for your safety, you had bleeding heart church groups that would regularly come by the camps to hand out food and clothing. All the while you can sell and doing drugs in the open.
  - baby 5y ago
    > just melted away to wherever they came from out of sight out of mind
  - vidarh 5y ago
    Or you could consider that if camping in "posh downtown parks" being legal was enough to make that better than the life they already had, perhaps that is a clue to social problems that you just didn't see before because it just wasn't out on the streets in front of your eyes.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  When I was a kid I met some new friends on a camping trip. Their grandparents were rolling in a nice trailer, had nice fishing gear, etc. One day I walked over to their campsite to invite the kids to play, and accidentally overheard them talking about making the kids put on ratty clothes so they could go begging, with the kids complaining. Later in life I was a missionary, and we saw a dude in homeless attire get out of a nice Mercedes. He saw us as well and told us his story about making bank begging in front of a bank, showed us the $$$ suits stashed in his trunk, told us about his high end "compound" where he lived. Then of course there was the guy who would block the sidewalk in front of a previous workplace in SF and harass any people passing by who didn't give him money. There are many cases of people either straight up abusing the system, or acting in ways that will destroy the system. The more of this there is -- the visible, abusive begging and taking over of shared public spaces -- the less empathy people will have for the invisible homeless who aren't causing trouble and will actually benefit from help.
gonehome 5y ago
Arguably SF’s lack of police response enables continued drug abuse and homelessness. See: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-san-francisco-fentanyl-addiction/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-s... This person has no interest in treatment. They want to do drugs and take advantage of what’s provided to keep doing that. You can’t fix that with hotels. You either need to require treatment or imprison (paired with arresting dealers). On the more progressive end, maybe drug clinics that administer drugs to addicts for free onsite (to crash the dealer market while you’re going after them). Eventually you have to force a choice. The do drugs openly while living in a tent on the street can’t be an option.
- furyg3 5y ago
  Arresting dealers / busting drug rings is one of the few policing activities that directly leads to MORE crime. What happens when you bust a drug ring and arrest some big players? You immediately create a power vacuum, which leads to a turf war where other players (in the gang or between gangs) start jockeying for power, spreading their mayhem across the area. The only solution here is legalization, treatment, and general social welfare.
  - ramoz 5y ago
    So legalize and the gang bangers go away? Nice!
    - furyg3 5y ago
      No. I said "The only solution here is legalization, treatment, and general social welfare." That last one is what makes the gang bangers go away, but it's a long process.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    Only if you keep the market alive. Arrest the dealers and administer the drug to addicts for free at clinics? I think that would be an interesting approach. I'm not a policy expert. I used to agree with you, but I think part of the issue is trivial access to drugs (see the tenderloin). It's harder for addicts to quit when it's very easy to get the drug (whether that's via dealers or legalization) and the city helps to enable you (hotel shelters, etc.) I understand the good intent and compassion, but a lot of bad policy on the left starts with good intent and ends with unanticipated bad consequences. Cities with arguably crueler enforcement don't have these issues (San Mateo). SF attracts addicts because they know it's lax and drug access is easy. Pair that with NIMBY housing policy and it's very hard to get housed and off of drugs. I'd argue the SF approach to this has been a failure, London Breed's recent speech on the topic is something I agree with. The equilibrium we're trapped in is bad. We need to force a choice and that choice is likely either treatment or prison.
refurb 5y ago
When you’ve got a Head of Homeless Services who see the homeless as a part of class warfare you realize they don’t want the problem fixed. They’re fighting capitalism by making the problem bigger, not smaller. “Why do they do it? Radical anti-system ideology. “There’s a San Francisco Coalition on Homelessness hat which says, ‘Coalition on Homelessness: On The Frontlines of Class Warfare,’” said the insider. “They feel like they’re fighting class warfare. They tell people to not take shelter.”” https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/san-francisco-homeless-insider-tells https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/san-francisco-ho...

by baby 5y ago

The same thing has been happening in SF with homelessness. A lot of people think they should go to prison or be displaced somewhere else. It’s like refusing to accept that there’s a root cause.

dkdbejwi383 5y ago

If you're like some of my older relatives, people choose to become "beggars" because they "want something for nothing" and would rather do that than work a job and live in stable accommodation.

barbacoa 5y ago
In Austin Texas when they legalized urban camping the short term effect was the homeless shelters and transitional housing programs cleared out in favor of camping in the posh downtown parks. There was a sudden increase in young rastafarian looking white kids living on the streets. When the ban was reinstated all those newcomers just melted away to wherever they came from. Didn't seem like that bad of a life while it lasted, being in the tourist areas crime was never bad enough to be afraid for your safety, you had bleeding heart church groups that would regularly come by the camps to hand out food and clothing. All the while you can sell and doing drugs in the open.
- baby 5y ago
  > just melted away to wherever they came from out of sight out of mind
- vidarh 5y ago
  Or you could consider that if camping in "posh downtown parks" being legal was enough to make that better than the life they already had, perhaps that is a clue to social problems that you just didn't see before because it just wasn't out on the streets in front of your eyes.
nitrogen 5y ago
When I was a kid I met some new friends on a camping trip. Their grandparents were rolling in a nice trailer, had nice fishing gear, etc. One day I walked over to their campsite to invite the kids to play, and accidentally overheard them talking about making the kids put on ratty clothes so they could go begging, with the kids complaining. Later in life I was a missionary, and we saw a dude in homeless attire get out of a nice Mercedes. He saw us as well and told us his story about making bank begging in front of a bank, showed us the $$$ suits stashed in his trunk, told us about his high end "compound" where he lived. Then of course there was the guy who would block the sidewalk in front of a previous workplace in SF and harass any people passing by who didn't give him money. There are many cases of people either straight up abusing the system, or acting in ways that will destroy the system. The more of this there is -- the visible, abusive begging and taking over of shared public spaces -- the less empathy people will have for the invisible homeless who aren't causing trouble and will actually benefit from help.

gonehome 5y ago

Arguably SF’s lack of police response enables continued drug abuse and homelessness. See: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-san-francisco-fentanyl-addiction/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2021/rescuing-jessica-s... This person has no interest in treatment. They want to do drugs and take advantage of what’s provided to keep doing that. You can’t fix that with hotels. You either need to require treatment or imprison (paired with arresting dealers). On the more progressive end, maybe drug clinics that administer drugs to addicts for free onsite (to crash the dealer market while you’re going after them). Eventually you have to force a choice. The do drugs openly while living in a tent on the street can’t be an option.

furyg3 5y ago
Arresting dealers / busting drug rings is one of the few policing activities that directly leads to MORE crime. What happens when you bust a drug ring and arrest some big players? You immediately create a power vacuum, which leads to a turf war where other players (in the gang or between gangs) start jockeying for power, spreading their mayhem across the area. The only solution here is legalization, treatment, and general social welfare.
- ramoz 5y ago
  So legalize and the gang bangers go away? Nice!
  - furyg3 5y ago
    No. I said "The only solution here is legalization, treatment, and general social welfare." That last one is what makes the gang bangers go away, but it's a long process.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Only if you keep the market alive. Arrest the dealers and administer the drug to addicts for free at clinics? I think that would be an interesting approach. I'm not a policy expert. I used to agree with you, but I think part of the issue is trivial access to drugs (see the tenderloin). It's harder for addicts to quit when it's very easy to get the drug (whether that's via dealers or legalization) and the city helps to enable you (hotel shelters, etc.) I understand the good intent and compassion, but a lot of bad policy on the left starts with good intent and ends with unanticipated bad consequences. Cities with arguably crueler enforcement don't have these issues (San Mateo). SF attracts addicts because they know it's lax and drug access is easy. Pair that with NIMBY housing policy and it's very hard to get housed and off of drugs. I'd argue the SF approach to this has been a failure, London Breed's recent speech on the topic is something I agree with. The equilibrium we're trapped in is bad. We need to force a choice and that choice is likely either treatment or prison.

refurb 5y ago

When you’ve got a Head of Homeless Services who see the homeless as a part of class warfare you realize they don’t want the problem fixed. They’re fighting capitalism by making the problem bigger, not smaller. “Why do they do it? Radical anti-system ideology. “There’s a San Francisco Coalition on Homelessness hat which says, ‘Coalition on Homelessness: On The Frontlines of Class Warfare,’” said the insider. “They feel like they’re fighting class warfare. They tell people to not take shelter.”” https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/san-francisco-homeless-insider-tells https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/san-francisco-ho...