8 ms·

> Additionally, mail theft laws which include prison as a consequence should be extended to package thefts if they don't already cover them. But it is a nonvio

> Additionally, mail theft laws which include prison as a consequence should be extended to package thefts if they don't already cover them. But it is a nonviolent crime. It seems like finding some way to prevent the thefts is better.

desmosxxx 5y ago
> it is a nonviolent crime This doesn't really mean anything. Non-violent crimes range from personal drug use & speeding to ponzi schemes & drunk driving. There is a difference between theft (a victim exists and can inflict either physical or emotional damage) and something like personal light drug use (mostly victimless). Theft not only robs a victim of their time & resource but it can also inflict emotional damage. A broken car window means you're out whatever they stole + glass (often a week or more of wages) and the emotional stress & time to fix it. These packages had recipients - the PPE is obviously important but each of these packages could have been someones anniversary gift or important medical device. If we're talking about the moral severity of the crime itself, theft is pretty close to assault in my book and should be punished accordingly. We can work on preventing the desperateness that leads to theft while still having strict punishment. What we shouldn't do is not address the root cause AND let such crimes go essentially unpunished.
yes_really 5y ago
I think putting the criminals in prisons for a long time, and the threat of the criminals being caught, is already a good way to prevent thefts.
- sjtindell 5y ago
  A horrible way to prevent theft. Statistically a great way to create career criminals, break up families, and all the side effects that comes with (like more criminals).
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    People who break into containers as shown here have no excuses and are already career criminals. Do they deserve a (potentially harsh) punishment? Yes. But is it in society's interest not to make them worse than they already are? Also, yes. So a problem in most countries is that prison is only focused on the punishment part not on the "what happens when people are released?" part.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    I think correct way is to punish relatively harshly(few months to years depending on amount), but also remove secondary effects. Like ban employers from asking about felonies unless they are dealing with minors or for example with fraud with financial positions. Do that and the person reports automatic payment of few months of wages. Now some of the offenders might have chance to integrate back to society...
  - bluescrn 5y ago
    But this attitude leads to the current situation, where the criminals face minimal risk, the deterrent factor of harsh punishments isn't there.
    - scollet 5y ago
      Are they stealing because they're criminals or are they criminals because they're stealing?
      - CamperBob2 5y ago
        Only the criminal can answer that, I suppose. Has it occurred to anyone to ask?
        scollet 5y ago
        I think the answer is in the action. It's easier for techy types to gaff at the risk of highway robbery for a good reason. Tech seeks to alleviate human labor via automation or semi-automation. I think people are trying to take the same shortcuts to reduce the friction of human labor. Thievery is a foundational American ideal, romanticized in some sense. The question most US citizens have been asking is "when do I get mine?". I think they're finding their own answers.
      - bluescrn 5y ago
        Or are they just opportunists, even if somewhat organised, stealing simply because they know they're likely to get away with it? Not doing it not out of any real need, but just for the thrill of it, or as a 'fuck you' to authority, whether that's the police, the politicians, or big business. When people can shoplift bagloads of merchandise without even trying to be stealthy, then casually walk out past a security guard who isn't allowed to do anything, or when they can smash a window and clean out a store under the cover of protests/unrest, it's not surprising that it escalates to more organised theft - whether it's 'flash rob' looting* of stores, or now looting train cargo. (*As for the now-seemingly-controversial term 'looting' vs stealing/theft/robbery - to me, looting is brazenly grabbing anything/everything, out in the open, often in broad daylight and on camera, while most 'normal' forms of theft are carried out more covertly and perhaps with particular targets in mind). No amount of policing will prevent all theft, but open looting is an sign of lawlessness.
- rjmunro 5y ago
  I think putting people away for a longer time doesn't help much. You need to focus on probability of being caught (by which I mean at least arrested, not chased away).
Ansil849 5y ago
> It seems like finding some way to prevent the thefts is better. It seems like it should be possible to use locks which are harder to open in a short amount of time...but I suppose the cost of that would outweigh the current costs of the theft for the railroads.
- 20after4 5y ago
  It's very difficult to make a lock that is really secure. Bolt cutters and battery powered saws / grinders are very powerful, portable and effective tools to cut through metal.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    Average time needed to get into a container (X) needs to be > average time train pauses (Y). This seems like it should be a solvable problem. For example, just thinking out loud, what about some sort of container door hinge mechanism which takes five minutes (or an adjustable amount of time) to open the door?
    - esyir 5y ago
      Screw it. This notion that we should only punish violent crime, and all other crime should be ignored needs to go. Look at this chain of logic presented above. >> Additionally, mail theft laws which include prison as a consequence should be extended to package thefts if they don't already cover them. >But it is a nonviolent crime. It seems like finding some way to prevent the thefts is better. The implied conclusion here is "We're allowing it if people don't guard it like it's ft Knox." The whole point of a legal system, the codification of crime and law enforcement is to stop things like this. To ensure that people cannot unilaterally and directly harm other people.
      - Ansil849 5y ago
        > unilaterally and directly harm other people. Which is precisely what "punishment" does. Try being less vindictive and more understanding about the root circumstances that lead someone to perform an act of desperation.
tehbeard 5y ago
I'm not so sure with the contents of some of the boxes being COVID tests or EpiPens if it can truly be considered "non-violent".
- zdragnar 5y ago
  Fortunately, medicines shipped by specialty / remote pharmacies typically don't often go by train, as they need relatively climate controlled environments (above freezing, under a certain amount, etc). That said, steal the shots I take for an autoimmune disorder and I'll definitely consider it an assault on my health.
  - dmurray 5y ago
    In the US, stealing Epipens and selling them on the black market makes them more accessible compared to than forcing people to pay the retail price. The manufacturer can always make more - they could accept 90% losses due to theft and still sell them profitably, based on the prices they offer in other countries [0]. So if you're going to play the "assault on my health" card, the guys robbing trains are literally Robin Hood saving lives. Yeah, it introduces some problems around chain of custody, counterfeiting...but people who can afford the $300 can continue to pay the retail price. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mylan-nl-pfizer-epipen-idUSKBN1HO2ZN https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mylan-nl-pfizer-epipen-id...
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      This is cute and all, but generic versions are available for much less than that, goodrx and co offer steep discounts on the brand name, and Medicaid pays for it entirely with no co-pay. If you want to continue the robin hood analogy, well, Robin hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor. He wasn't selling life saving medicines that may or may not be fake (buyers won't know either way), and may have been improperly handled or stored. He wasn't potentially killing people who just want to save a few bucks.
    - tehbeard 5y ago
      That's real noble, but the issue I'm on about isn't the price, that's its own can of worms and something for you lot to deal with in the US. Disruption to medicine supply is my concern here, having had supply issues affect a family member where they've had to ration out heart related medication... I'm a little tetchy about it.
deleted 5y ago
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zo1 5y ago
I disagree. If you prevent this one, some people will stop, whilst others will just find something else to steal elsewhere. It's like a big game of wack-a-mole. I'd much rather we arrest them so they can be rehabilitated or helped. Which is a separate discussion, but there have to be consequences. Sometimes it's too late to help them and we just need to stem the damage they do to society and other people that are innocent.
- computerfriend 5y ago
  > I'd much rather we arrest them so they can be rehabilitated or helped. This is not what happens when people are arrested.
  - konschubert 5y ago
    That's why OP said: > Which is a separate discussion
deleted 5y ago
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raverbashing 5y ago
Cool, so wage theft is a nonviolent crime as well, hence by your logic it should go unpunished as well
- scollet 5y ago
  Wage theft is very violent.
deleted 5y ago
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ramoz 5y ago
Putting this burden on the commercial parties is the type of thing that causes inflation. Police this.

desmosxxx 5y ago

> it is a nonviolent crime This doesn't really mean anything. Non-violent crimes range from personal drug use & speeding to ponzi schemes & drunk driving. There is a difference between theft (a victim exists and can inflict either physical or emotional damage) and something like personal light drug use (mostly victimless). Theft not only robs a victim of their time & resource but it can also inflict emotional damage. A broken car window means you're out whatever they stole + glass (often a week or more of wages) and the emotional stress & time to fix it. These packages had recipients - the PPE is obviously important but each of these packages could have been someones anniversary gift or important medical device. If we're talking about the moral severity of the crime itself, theft is pretty close to assault in my book and should be punished accordingly. We can work on preventing the desperateness that leads to theft while still having strict punishment. What we shouldn't do is not address the root cause AND let such crimes go essentially unpunished.

yes_really 5y ago

I think putting the criminals in prisons for a long time, and the threat of the criminals being caught, is already a good way to prevent thefts.

sjtindell 5y ago
A horrible way to prevent theft. Statistically a great way to create career criminals, break up families, and all the side effects that comes with (like more criminals).
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  People who break into containers as shown here have no excuses and are already career criminals. Do they deserve a (potentially harsh) punishment? Yes. But is it in society's interest not to make them worse than they already are? Also, yes. So a problem in most countries is that prison is only focused on the punishment part not on the "what happens when people are released?" part.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I think correct way is to punish relatively harshly(few months to years depending on amount), but also remove secondary effects. Like ban employers from asking about felonies unless they are dealing with minors or for example with fraud with financial positions. Do that and the person reports automatic payment of few months of wages. Now some of the offenders might have chance to integrate back to society...
- bluescrn 5y ago
  But this attitude leads to the current situation, where the criminals face minimal risk, the deterrent factor of harsh punishments isn't there.
  - scollet 5y ago
    Are they stealing because they're criminals or are they criminals because they're stealing?
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      Only the criminal can answer that, I suppose. Has it occurred to anyone to ask?
      - scollet 5y ago
        I think the answer is in the action. It's easier for techy types to gaff at the risk of highway robbery for a good reason. Tech seeks to alleviate human labor via automation or semi-automation. I think people are trying to take the same shortcuts to reduce the friction of human labor. Thievery is a foundational American ideal, romanticized in some sense. The question most US citizens have been asking is "when do I get mine?". I think they're finding their own answers.
    - bluescrn 5y ago
      Or are they just opportunists, even if somewhat organised, stealing simply because they know they're likely to get away with it? Not doing it not out of any real need, but just for the thrill of it, or as a 'fuck you' to authority, whether that's the police, the politicians, or big business. When people can shoplift bagloads of merchandise without even trying to be stealthy, then casually walk out past a security guard who isn't allowed to do anything, or when they can smash a window and clean out a store under the cover of protests/unrest, it's not surprising that it escalates to more organised theft - whether it's 'flash rob' looting* of stores, or now looting train cargo. (*As for the now-seemingly-controversial term 'looting' vs stealing/theft/robbery - to me, looting is brazenly grabbing anything/everything, out in the open, often in broad daylight and on camera, while most 'normal' forms of theft are carried out more covertly and perhaps with particular targets in mind). No amount of policing will prevent all theft, but open looting is an sign of lawlessness.
rjmunro 5y ago
I think putting people away for a longer time doesn't help much. You need to focus on probability of being caught (by which I mean at least arrested, not chased away).

Ansil849 5y ago

> It seems like finding some way to prevent the thefts is better. It seems like it should be possible to use locks which are harder to open in a short amount of time...but I suppose the cost of that would outweigh the current costs of the theft for the railroads.

20after4 5y ago
It's very difficult to make a lock that is really secure. Bolt cutters and battery powered saws / grinders are very powerful, portable and effective tools to cut through metal.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  Average time needed to get into a container (X) needs to be > average time train pauses (Y). This seems like it should be a solvable problem. For example, just thinking out loud, what about some sort of container door hinge mechanism which takes five minutes (or an adjustable amount of time) to open the door?
  - esyir 5y ago
    Screw it. This notion that we should only punish violent crime, and all other crime should be ignored needs to go. Look at this chain of logic presented above. >> Additionally, mail theft laws which include prison as a consequence should be extended to package thefts if they don't already cover them. >But it is a nonviolent crime. It seems like finding some way to prevent the thefts is better. The implied conclusion here is "We're allowing it if people don't guard it like it's ft Knox." The whole point of a legal system, the codification of crime and law enforcement is to stop things like this. To ensure that people cannot unilaterally and directly harm other people.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      > unilaterally and directly harm other people. Which is precisely what "punishment" does. Try being less vindictive and more understanding about the root circumstances that lead someone to perform an act of desperation.

tehbeard 5y ago

I'm not so sure with the contents of some of the boxes being COVID tests or EpiPens if it can truly be considered "non-violent".

zdragnar 5y ago
Fortunately, medicines shipped by specialty / remote pharmacies typically don't often go by train, as they need relatively climate controlled environments (above freezing, under a certain amount, etc). That said, steal the shots I take for an autoimmune disorder and I'll definitely consider it an assault on my health.
- dmurray 5y ago
  In the US, stealing Epipens and selling them on the black market makes them more accessible compared to than forcing people to pay the retail price. The manufacturer can always make more - they could accept 90% losses due to theft and still sell them profitably, based on the prices they offer in other countries [0]. So if you're going to play the "assault on my health" card, the guys robbing trains are literally Robin Hood saving lives. Yeah, it introduces some problems around chain of custody, counterfeiting...but people who can afford the $300 can continue to pay the retail price. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mylan-nl-pfizer-epipen-idUSKBN1HO2ZN https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mylan-nl-pfizer-epipen-id...
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    This is cute and all, but generic versions are available for much less than that, goodrx and co offer steep discounts on the brand name, and Medicaid pays for it entirely with no co-pay. If you want to continue the robin hood analogy, well, Robin hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor. He wasn't selling life saving medicines that may or may not be fake (buyers won't know either way), and may have been improperly handled or stored. He wasn't potentially killing people who just want to save a few bucks.
  - tehbeard 5y ago
    That's real noble, but the issue I'm on about isn't the price, that's its own can of worms and something for you lot to deal with in the US. Disruption to medicine supply is my concern here, having had supply issues affect a family member where they've had to ration out heart related medication... I'm a little tetchy about it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

zo1 5y ago

I disagree. If you prevent this one, some people will stop, whilst others will just find something else to steal elsewhere. It's like a big game of wack-a-mole. I'd much rather we arrest them so they can be rehabilitated or helped. Which is a separate discussion, but there have to be consequences. Sometimes it's too late to help them and we just need to stem the damage they do to society and other people that are innocent.

computerfriend 5y ago
> I'd much rather we arrest them so they can be rehabilitated or helped. This is not what happens when people are arrested.
- konschubert 5y ago
  That's why OP said: > Which is a separate discussion

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

raverbashing 5y ago

Cool, so wage theft is a nonviolent crime as well, hence by your logic it should go unpunished as well

scollet 5y ago
Wage theft is very violent.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ramoz 5y ago

Putting this burden on the commercial parties is the type of thing that causes inflation. Police this.