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Sigh - Any resourced and competent police or security force should be able to catch or deter thieves that are stealing packages from the same location. Addition
by fblp 5y ago
Sigh - Any resourced and competent police or security force should be able to catch or deter thieves that are stealing packages from the same location. Additionally, mail theft laws which include prison as a consequence should be extended to package thefts if they don't already cover them.
- systemvoltage 5y ago> Any resourced I thought we all rooted here to defund the police? Should we backtrack that idea? Edit: I seem to have broken a nerve in some people here. Sorry, for being snarky. I just think that you can't reduce funding for a gov agency but also then expect it to be resourced. Just using sterile logic to make this conclusion.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- nightsd01 5y agoVery few people want to actually defund the police. But try being a black friend of mine, who got thrown out of his car without resisting and beaten so bad he had to go to an ICU, purely because he was driving a car that “matched the description” (that didn’t even match the color) of a crime in the area, and perhaps you can begin to understand why the “other side” is frustrated… And let me guess. You think these train robberies happen because they defunded the police in their area…?
- systemvoltage 5y agoI am well aware of the colloquial term "Defund the police" which is often met by "No, not literally defund it". But the reality is that there is a strong support to reduce resources and move towards soft-policing. Have you been to the Bay Area? Apartment complexes and condominiums are hardened like castles while their kids play in the safe courtyards and the outside is rotting to the point of unsafe for male padestrians, let alone women and kids. These are the same people voting for these policies. Completely deranged.
- nightsd01 5y agoDo you think the police in the jurisdiction where these train thefts occurred was underfunded? I’d be thrilled to hear your solution…
- OnlineGladiator 5y agoThe police are already ridiculously well-funded (on average, there are exceptions). Look at their budgets and start asking "where the hell does the money go?" They don't need more money. They need to be held accountable.
- 20after4 5y agoPolice are focusing all of their efforts elsewhere. They don't care about property crime like this. Also, as pointed out elsewhere on the thread, policing the tracks is the responsibility of the railroad company, not LAPD.
- nightsd01 5y agoDude, I literally live in the Bay Area. And crime here is no where even close to bad as it was where I used to live in Texas. It’s all relative. Especially when politics is involved. I see absolutely no reason to believe that raising police budgets would somehow magically fix this. It wouldn’t. We have deeper societal issues at hand.
- 5y ago
- caf 5y agoPerhaps surprisingly, the police force with jurisdiction here appears to be a private one, not a government agency.
- thebradbain 5y agoLAPD funding went _up_ 12% during and after the George Floyd protests (The highest it's ever been! The highest in the country per capita!). In fact, LASD/public schools got a cut in funding to help fund the LAPD budget. Granted, per the article, LAPD doesn't service freight rail lines, maybe because they'd say they'd be stretched too thin – and to be fair, 800+ of them are on leave for COVID, and falsely blaming it on defunding (which is corroborated by LAPD's own PR department, saying the statements put out should not have been). https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-11/covid-19-cases-continue-surging-in-lapd-with-more-than-800-personnel-now-out https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-11/covid-19... https://laist.com/news/politics/mayor-garcetti-signs-11-2-billion-city-budget-with-more-lapd-spending-1-billion-for-homelessness https://laist.com/news/politics/mayor-garcetti-signs-11-2-bi... https://www.lataco.com/lapd-office-closed-defunding-false/ https://www.lataco.com/lapd-office-closed-defunding-false/ These statements are facts, yours are... what, exactly?
- systemvoltage 5y agoI am talking in general, not specifically about LAPD. There seems to be a rude awakening, where I live: https://www.npr.org/2021/12/11/1063408465/oakland-city-councils-shift-on-police-force-debate-from-defund-to-re-fund https://www.npr.org/2021/12/11/1063408465/oakland-city-counc... > The city council voted last summer to redirect money proposed for Oakland's Police Department to social services. But this week, defund the police became refund to the police. The same city council approved two new police academies and voted to hire a professional recruiter to attract officers to its department after a wave of resignations.
- thebradbain 5y agoIf we're not talking about Los Angeles – which is what this entire article is based on – then you're opening up pandora's box. What about Scandinavian or Western European countries, then? Maybe closer to home, what about NYC – the year the NYPD went on strike, crime went _down_ (not just a drop in arrests, but actual murders, theft, etc). and NYPD realized they'd have to voluntarily restart policing (without the desired increase in labor terms), or NYC City Council might realize they're not as necessary as they originally set out to prove. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proacti... https://www.vox.com/2015/1/6/7501953/nypd-mayor-arrests-union https://www.vox.com/2015/1/6/7501953/nypd-mayor-arrests-unio... When you fund a prison-industrial complex, you're creating a system that incentivizes incarceration, not rehabilitation. These systems don't want to solve crime – they want to set out to look for (or, some would say, create) crime. Other countries realized this, and seem to have much less actual crime as a result, while protecting things that actually matter (i.e. their major trade routes/people's lives/the general wellbeing of society). The US seems to have this idea that... if you don't have a home, or you're addicted to drugs, or you need a wellness check, you're more dangerous than a murderer or a thief (given that the former group makes up the vast majority of those incarcerated)
- threatofrain 5y agoThe actual responsible enforcement agency is in Omaha Nebraska, whereas the LAPD has had increased funding through the years.
- Seattle3503 5y ago> Additionally, mail theft laws which include prison as a consequence should be extended to package thefts if they don't already cover them. But it is a nonviolent crime. It seems like finding some way to prevent the thefts is better.
- desmosxxx 5y ago> it is a nonviolent crime This doesn't really mean anything. Non-violent crimes range from personal drug use & speeding to ponzi schemes & drunk driving. There is a difference between theft (a victim exists and can inflict either physical or emotional damage) and something like personal light drug use (mostly victimless). Theft not only robs a victim of their time & resource but it can also inflict emotional damage. A broken car window means you're out whatever they stole + glass (often a week or more of wages) and the emotional stress & time to fix it. These packages had recipients - the PPE is obviously important but each of these packages could have been someones anniversary gift or important medical device. If we're talking about the moral severity of the crime itself, theft is pretty close to assault in my book and should be punished accordingly. We can work on preventing the desperateness that leads to theft while still having strict punishment. What we shouldn't do is not address the root cause AND let such crimes go essentially unpunished.
- yes_really 5y agoI think putting the criminals in prisons for a long time, and the threat of the criminals being caught, is already a good way to prevent thefts.
- sjtindell 5y agoA horrible way to prevent theft. Statistically a great way to create career criminals, break up families, and all the side effects that comes with (like more criminals).
- mytailorisrich 5y agoPeople who break into containers as shown here have no excuses and are already career criminals. Do they deserve a (potentially harsh) punishment? Yes. But is it in society's interest not to make them worse than they already are? Also, yes. So a problem in most countries is that prison is only focused on the punishment part not on the "what happens when people are released?" part.
- caf 5y agoThe agency with jurisdiction here appears to be a private police force: the Union Pacific Police (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Police_Department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_Police_Departmen...). So their resourcing wouldn't take into account wider societal benefits from lower crime - it'd be more about the direct costs and benefits to the business.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago> it'd be more about the direct costs and benefits to the business. ... which are tied to lowering crime.
- unityByFreedom 5y agoI imagine this will get sorted since Buffett both invests in Union Pacific and provides insurance. He famously doesn't get involved in the companies in which he invests, but I imagine his people could shoot over a question like, "why is this happening?"
- perihelions 5y agoSociety should be strong enough *not* to have to rely on random idiot billionaires to sponsor basic social services like law enforcement.
- unityByFreedom 5y agoThe railroad itself is incentivized to secure its own goods. We aren't "reliant" on them to do that. If Buffett sells his stake in UP, someone else buys it and the company continues on. They got big because they figured out how to build a profitable business. Part of that is security. None of that makes us dependent on them. We have a mutual dependence through trade. Businesses provide something we want, and we give them something they want.
- mdasen 5y agoI don't think Buffett invests in Union Pacific. His company fully owns BNSF which holds a duopoly with Union Pacific in the Western United States. It looks like Buffett owned Union Pacific shares a while back, but sold them in 2009 so that they could buy BNSF.
- yed 5y agoLooks like it's already a federal crime of it's own with possible prison time: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1991 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1991
- sgjohnson 5y agoIANAL, but States are not "within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States" In this context "the United States" means the federal government. States are also within the jurisdiction of the state government, and therefore not within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States. This is the exact same reason why the US president can only pardon federal crimes.
- dredmorbius 5y agoThe conditions are ORed, not ANDed: Whoever, in any Territory or District, OR within or upon any place within the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States (Capitalisation for emphasis by me.) The crime depicted is a federal one under US law.
- sgjohnson 5y agoA State is also not a Territory or a District.
- dredmorbius 5y agoHrm...
- dredmorbius 5y agoDo you have a specific reference addressing this, because I'm not finding a clear statement one way or the other. Title 18 lacks a Definitions section that I can find.
- sgjohnson 5y agoNot a definitive source, but here's FATCA for example: https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Agreement-BVI-6-30-2014.pdf https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties... > The term “U.S. Territory” means American Samoa, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or the U.S. Virgin Islands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_Stat... And there's plenty of references to legal documents clearly stating or implying that territories are in fact not sovereign entities (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_v._Sanchez_Valle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico_v._Sanchez_Valle) And obviously there's only one Disctrict. The District of Columbia. So it's actually fairly complex to define "the United States", because the answer is generally "it depends on the context"
- palijer 5y agoPerhaps America should be looking at reducing the causes of what leads people to needing to be thieves, rather than catching them and putting them into the justice system (which has many systemic issues itself) As a technical comparison; if you have a system that is creating a bug then it seems an incorrect stopgap solution to invest in support resources to handle user complaints rather than development and QA resources to reduce the chances of users running into the bug.
- stavros 5y agoWhy help poor people when you can catch criminals instead?