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You acknowledge that the data is rather clear on this: education is well correlated with income: https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2020/data-on-display/educatio

You acknowledge that the data is rather clear on this: education is well correlated with income: https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2020/data-on-display/education-pays.htm https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2020/data-on-display/educa... And while I have sympathy for your story, it isn't much more than what you want to be true. As an example: even a rather stupid medical doctor will tend to earn a lot of money. So, assuming you are capable of getting the degree, it will likely pay well. Another large group goes into teaching, where income is also set mostly by your degree and tenure, not individual skills. None of that is definite. I'm just trying to show how you can spin a story either way. But refuting the data which is clear on this across time and many countries requires more than a good story. The question why you'd want to believe that is rather natural, as are your emotions. The mythological welders with 6-digit incomes are a staple on HN, so it isn't really unusual. I guess it's part of a cluster of attitudes best described as anti-elitism.

hooande 5y ago
Read this: > "Before they attend, students that go to college, on average, demonstrate better analytic skills than the students that do not go to college. They also, on average, have access to more existing wealth and other resources through their family." This is a classic example of the concept of "correlation does not equal causation". This is when two things are related, but one does not lead to the other.
- KarlKemp 5y ago
  Read this: > "But refuting the data which is clear on this across time and many countries requires more than a good story." We all know correlation does not equal causation because we went to college. Or have read a single thread here. But it's still empirical data and, as such, slightly better than motivated storytelling.
  - nfw2 5y ago
    It's not slightly better if you are trying to determine causation. I'm not sure what you think "correlation does not equal causation" means if you think this is the case.
  - NavinF 5y ago
    > slightly better https://www.gwern.net/Causality https://www.gwern.net/Causality
nfw2 5y ago
I'm not sure what story you think I'm trying to tell. My main point was that anecdotal data can be valuable when the empirical data doesn't tell the whole story. I agree with your point about the doctor. It's a good point that uses storytelling which is the thing you seem to be against. As for what I believe personally, I think college is still the right choice for most students who want to pursue a STEM field or study business. I went to college, studied a STEM field, and it worked out well. You say that empirical data is always better than storytelling based on anecdotes. I disagree. Misleading empirical data can be actively harmful and worse than no data at all. For example, if students assume from the existing correlations that college will automatically raise their income, regardless of their intended career, they might be left with no career prospects, crushing amounts of debt, seemingly no hope of ever owning a home, seemingly no hope to ever support a family, etc. It's very depressing and what many of my peers are facing now.

hooande 5y ago

Read this: > "Before they attend, students that go to college, on average, demonstrate better analytic skills than the students that do not go to college. They also, on average, have access to more existing wealth and other resources through their family." This is a classic example of the concept of "correlation does not equal causation". This is when two things are related, but one does not lead to the other.

KarlKemp 5y ago
Read this: > "But refuting the data which is clear on this across time and many countries requires more than a good story." We all know correlation does not equal causation because we went to college. Or have read a single thread here. But it's still empirical data and, as such, slightly better than motivated storytelling.
- nfw2 5y ago
  It's not slightly better if you are trying to determine causation. I'm not sure what you think "correlation does not equal causation" means if you think this is the case.
- NavinF 5y ago
  > slightly better https://www.gwern.net/Causality https://www.gwern.net/Causality

nfw2 5y ago

I'm not sure what story you think I'm trying to tell. My main point was that anecdotal data can be valuable when the empirical data doesn't tell the whole story. I agree with your point about the doctor. It's a good point that uses storytelling which is the thing you seem to be against. As for what I believe personally, I think college is still the right choice for most students who want to pursue a STEM field or study business. I went to college, studied a STEM field, and it worked out well. You say that empirical data is always better than storytelling based on anecdotes. I disagree. Misleading empirical data can be actively harmful and worse than no data at all. For example, if students assume from the existing correlations that college will automatically raise their income, regardless of their intended career, they might be left with no career prospects, crushing amounts of debt, seemingly no hope of ever owning a home, seemingly no hope to ever support a family, etc. It's very depressing and what many of my peers are facing now.