4 ms·

> "Is there any scenario in which this makes sense for me to mention something to my manager or should I just keep my mouth shut?" The only thing you should br

> "Is there any scenario in which this makes sense for me to mention something to my manager or should I just keep my mouth shut?" The only thing you should bring up to your manager is if the person is not meeting their commitments in a way that impacts you meeting your own commitments; you do want the responsibility for that to land where it should. Even then, do it in a non-accusatory way. Beyond that, it's just plain none of your business. You don't know their circumstances; maybe they're genuinely slacking, maybe they have family issues, maybe they're having physical or mental health problems, maybe they're fighting burnout/boreout, etc. I have been in this industry long enough to see quite a few people go through bad patches in their life. Consider that, someday, it might be you struggling to recover and hoping your co-workers will give you the breathing room you need. You also don't know what, if anything, the manager is doing to address the problem nor are you entitled to. If you want to be in the business of dealing with that kind of issue, become a manager yourself.

fargle 5y ago
> maybe they have family issues, maybe they're having physical or mental health problems then they should quit! stealing time, value, money from the company and its fellow employees isn't right. It's shitty behavior and nobody should defend it. But - the most accurate model for what other people will do is electricity - they will follow the path of least resistance. That's all the "manager" is doing. If you make too many problems, getting rid of you might be easier than dealing with those problems!
tubby12345 5y ago
- ericfrazier 5y ago
  ?
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Joke's on you. This is the top-rated response.
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    Well, it's only because his post activated virtue signalling and deep seated guilt. Like quantum mechanics, he already reduced the uncertainty waveform to guilt rather than wrath.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Considering that the post in question agrees in detail with almost all the others, your assessment is demonstrated false. It is better to seek reasons why your assessment might be mistaken before posting than to need to be corrected in public.
  - tubby12345 5y ago
    - Der_Einzige 5y ago
      You did, and you are based for writing this comment. As usual, HN has pretty bad taste with downvotes. One day I am going to write a script to allow a user to automatically upvote all downvoted posts for this reason.
- jgwil2 5y ago
  Somehow you found a way to advocate for kindness and empathy while still coming off as a bit of a jerk... it's kind of impressive actually. The little brag about the size of your paycheck was a nice touch.
  - tubby12345 5y ago
ratg13 5y ago
There is a saying that goes, "the fastest way to demotivate a good employee is to allow them to watch you tolerate a bad one" Not all managers are aware of this. Everything you say is true, however, I have also witnessed first hand this sort of thing drain a company of talent. It's only after everyone else leaves and maybe you leave yourself where you start to question whether watching the whole company lose it's talent was worth being polite.
- deanmoriarty 5y ago
  I wish I could upvote you 100. This is exactly the kind of thing I witnessed in real life. It was absolutely sad.
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    Indeed. I'd never heard the saying but have definitely experienced it first-hand more times than I care to remember.
  - JSONderulo 5y ago
    Been there. literally used to keep a running list of the excuses from a coworker on my team. totally demotivating for the rest of us busting our butts. I was young and didnt call it out. Guess i thought our manager would notice. Maybe they did but they didn't do anything. I didnt stick around.
- tinyhouse 5y ago
  There is a difference between a bad employee who is harmful to the team and one who is not doing anything and is harmless, albeit not adding any value. Good managers get rid of bad employees and try to work out with potentially good employees that happen to have a rough time. Sometimes it doesn't work out and you need to part ways, but sometimes it does. I've seen it more than once a great employee having depression and really struggling. That's when they need the support of their manager the most.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  I have to ask, have your bad employees not resulted in issues for others? People seem to be misunderstanding, this isn't about being scared to tattle or something. No one is saying keep quiet while someone harms the team... What they're saying is: Your feedback should be based on harm, not just a gut feeling. I've never seen a team where someone could do 0 work and not create actionable blockages of work that you'd be able to bring up. - And honestly, part of me is starting to wonder if that's the issue... if you're on a team where someone also on that team (not an individual contributor) can do 0 work and not block anyone and not affect any deliverables, then that sounds like a fundamentally dysfunctional org. The problem isn't even your manager tolerating them, the role shouldn't exist. That kind of org tends to bleed talent as people realize it's not rarely an isolated issue and they're part of a pretty dysfunctional system.
bko 5y ago
> Beyond that, it's just plain none of your business What if someone was embezzling money from the firm? Where do you draw the line? > You also don't know what, if anything, the manager is doing to address the problem nor are you entitled to. If you want to be in the business of dealing with that kind of issue, become a manager yourself. Most managers would expect junior team members to speak out. If it's being addressed, the manager will likely tell you that he or she is aware and its being addressed.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  > Where do you draw the line? Embezzling money. And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". You can effortlessly do the same for someone slacking, as the comment you replied to did. > Most managers would expect junior team members to speak out. If it's being addressed, the manager will likely tell you that he or she is aware and its being addressed. Most managers would expect you to share in terms of how it affects you, not some vague air of "they don't do anything": So not: "I feel like they always have excuses for doing nothing" Instead: "I needed X, Y and Z on separate instances from this coworker and was unable to get that" (Or specific to excuses: "I expected X, didn't get X and they gave excuse Y") It a good practice to do that anyways since it protects you from potential alienation and/or embarrassment if it turns out your idea of "them doing nothing" is dead wrong.
  - bko 5y ago
    > And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It's legally different, but there's harm being done and I consider it theft. It's not complicated. In regards to slacking, there's no expectation that someone is working 100% of the time and no reasonable person would expect that someone is working 100% of the time. But a reasonable person would expect that they work some of the time, perhaps a reasonable amount based on the work of their peers. > Most managers would expect you to share in terms of how it affects you, not some vague air of "they don't do anything": I've been a manager and worked with lots of managers. I strongly disagree and this is not what I've seen. They want to have more information about efficiency and happiness on the team that they're managing. And they certainly want to know if someone is not working... at all... for over a year... You can tell them and if they say "don't care", so be it. But a reasonable manager would want to know. I don't know if you've ever been in a managerial role, but I suggest you have a talk with superiors about this hypothetical and get their opinion on it.
crate_barre 5y ago
maybe they're fighting burnout/boreout Guilty. I could easily be this person’s coworker. I do try to make sure I’m not blocking anyone, but overall, I am definitely in a rough patch that I’m slowly fighting through. Not being on my A-game has also led to a modicum of depression. It’s not roses on the other side either if the OP wants put themselves in these shoes.

fargle 5y ago

> maybe they have family issues, maybe they're having physical or mental health problems then they should quit! stealing time, value, money from the company and its fellow employees isn't right. It's shitty behavior and nobody should defend it. But - the most accurate model for what other people will do is electricity - they will follow the path of least resistance. That's all the "manager" is doing. If you make too many problems, getting rid of you might be easier than dealing with those problems!

tubby12345 5y ago

ericfrazier 5y ago
?
ncmncm 5y ago
Joke's on you. This is the top-rated response.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  Well, it's only because his post activated virtue signalling and deep seated guilt. Like quantum mechanics, he already reduced the uncertainty waveform to guilt rather than wrath.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Considering that the post in question agrees in detail with almost all the others, your assessment is demonstrated false. It is better to seek reasons why your assessment might be mistaken before posting than to need to be corrected in public.
- tubby12345 5y ago
  - Der_Einzige 5y ago
    You did, and you are based for writing this comment. As usual, HN has pretty bad taste with downvotes. One day I am going to write a script to allow a user to automatically upvote all downvoted posts for this reason.
jgwil2 5y ago
Somehow you found a way to advocate for kindness and empathy while still coming off as a bit of a jerk... it's kind of impressive actually. The little brag about the size of your paycheck was a nice touch.
- tubby12345 5y ago

ratg13 5y ago

There is a saying that goes, "the fastest way to demotivate a good employee is to allow them to watch you tolerate a bad one" Not all managers are aware of this. Everything you say is true, however, I have also witnessed first hand this sort of thing drain a company of talent. It's only after everyone else leaves and maybe you leave yourself where you start to question whether watching the whole company lose it's talent was worth being polite.

deanmoriarty 5y ago
I wish I could upvote you 100. This is exactly the kind of thing I witnessed in real life. It was absolutely sad.
- effingwewt 5y ago
  Indeed. I'd never heard the saying but have definitely experienced it first-hand more times than I care to remember.
- JSONderulo 5y ago
  Been there. literally used to keep a running list of the excuses from a coworker on my team. totally demotivating for the rest of us busting our butts. I was young and didnt call it out. Guess i thought our manager would notice. Maybe they did but they didn't do anything. I didnt stick around.
tinyhouse 5y ago
There is a difference between a bad employee who is harmful to the team and one who is not doing anything and is harmless, albeit not adding any value. Good managers get rid of bad employees and try to work out with potentially good employees that happen to have a rough time. Sometimes it doesn't work out and you need to part ways, but sometimes it does. I've seen it more than once a great employee having depression and really struggling. That's when they need the support of their manager the most.
BoorishBears 5y ago
I have to ask, have your bad employees not resulted in issues for others? People seem to be misunderstanding, this isn't about being scared to tattle or something. No one is saying keep quiet while someone harms the team... What they're saying is: Your feedback should be based on harm, not just a gut feeling. I've never seen a team where someone could do 0 work and not create actionable blockages of work that you'd be able to bring up. - And honestly, part of me is starting to wonder if that's the issue... if you're on a team where someone also on that team (not an individual contributor) can do 0 work and not block anyone and not affect any deliverables, then that sounds like a fundamentally dysfunctional org. The problem isn't even your manager tolerating them, the role shouldn't exist. That kind of org tends to bleed talent as people realize it's not rarely an isolated issue and they're part of a pretty dysfunctional system.

bko 5y ago

> Beyond that, it's just plain none of your business What if someone was embezzling money from the firm? Where do you draw the line? > You also don't know what, if anything, the manager is doing to address the problem nor are you entitled to. If you want to be in the business of dealing with that kind of issue, become a manager yourself. Most managers would expect junior team members to speak out. If it's being addressed, the manager will likely tell you that he or she is aware and its being addressed.

BoorishBears 5y ago
> Where do you draw the line? Embezzling money. And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". You can effortlessly do the same for someone slacking, as the comment you replied to did. > Most managers would expect junior team members to speak out. If it's being addressed, the manager will likely tell you that he or she is aware and its being addressed. Most managers would expect you to share in terms of how it affects you, not some vague air of "they don't do anything": So not: "I feel like they always have excuses for doing nothing" Instead: "I needed X, Y and Z on separate instances from this coworker and was unable to get that" (Or specific to excuses: "I expected X, didn't get X and they gave excuse Y") It a good practice to do that anyways since it protects you from potential alienation and/or embarrassment if it turns out your idea of "them doing nothing" is dead wrong.
- bko 5y ago
  > And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It's legally different, but there's harm being done and I consider it theft. It's not complicated. In regards to slacking, there's no expectation that someone is working 100% of the time and no reasonable person would expect that someone is working 100% of the time. But a reasonable person would expect that they work some of the time, perhaps a reasonable amount based on the work of their peers. > Most managers would expect you to share in terms of how it affects you, not some vague air of "they don't do anything": I've been a manager and worked with lots of managers. I strongly disagree and this is not what I've seen. They want to have more information about efficiency and happiness on the team that they're managing. And they certainly want to know if someone is not working... at all... for over a year... You can tell them and if they say "don't care", so be it. But a reasonable manager would want to know. I don't know if you've ever been in a managerial role, but I suggest you have a talk with superiors about this hypothetical and get their opinion on it.

crate_barre 5y ago

maybe they're fighting burnout/boreout Guilty. I could easily be this person’s coworker. I do try to make sure I’m not blocking anyone, but overall, I am definitely in a rough patch that I’m slowly fighting through. Not being on my A-game has also led to a modicum of depression. It’s not roses on the other side either if the OP wants put themselves in these shoes.