4 ms·

Not much logic or observation in this journal rant, but the fact that it reached the HN frontpage shows a (welcome!) renewed interest in the ideas of the roguel

Not much logic or observation in this journal rant, but the fact that it reached the HN frontpage shows a (welcome!) renewed interest in the ideas of the roguelike game. If you are interested in the topic a quick google will yeild lots of good articles. I found this list of elements useful to organize my thinking: Rogue Like: High-value factors 1. Random environment generation 2. Permadeath 3. Turn-based 4. Grid-based 5. Non-modal 6. Complexity 7. Resource management 8. Hack n slash 9. Exploration or discovery Low-value factors 1. Single-player character 2. Monsters are similar to players 3. Tactical challenge 4. ASCII display 5. Dungeons 6. Numbers Via: https://www.nerdmuch.com/roguelike-vs-roguelite/ https://www.nerdmuch.com/roguelike-vs-roguelite/

rhn_mk1 5y ago
Hm, considering X-COM, the only missing important piece is 5. Non-modal. Hack-n-slash and grid/turn-based are not inherent to the X-COM genre, and are broken only in geoscape anyway. There's also a bunch of low-value factors there: 2. Enemies are similar to players, 3. Tactical challenge, and perhaps 6. Numbers. This is something that hasn't clicked for me before.
- usrusr 5y ago
  There's a "restart mission" button however which is the antithesis of permadeath. An optional "iron man" mode (I think recent games utilizing the XCOM brand have it?) is something that deserves to be discussed separately.
  - rhn_mk1 5y ago
    I think this restart ability counts the same way as saving/loading. I have forgotten that "iron man" mode is not universal, but indeed, some games are not balanced enough by default to play without saving and loading (UFO: Aftermath would have been very nice otherwise). So yes, the save/load facility is rather normal and a departure from roguelikes.
    - usrusr 5y ago
      I think "ironman mode" deserves a separate discussion, because there is such a wide gap between games where it's merely a higher stakes setting and games where recovery from setbacks is a core element, and not just as a lofty goal ("wouldn't it be nice if people played that way?") but made so interesting that players actually play that way, and not just a tiny fraction of the most masochistic. That difference is best illustrated comparing Crusader Kings and its seemingly similar sibling Europa Universalis: (I'm talking about recent incarnations, I don't know CK1 or EU[123]) CK is full of rebound mechanics that work for both bad decisions and for RNG setbacks, whereas EU is mostly straight-forward 4X where any bit of falling behind ruthlessly compounds.

rhn_mk1 5y ago

Hm, considering X-COM, the only missing important piece is 5. Non-modal. Hack-n-slash and grid/turn-based are not inherent to the X-COM genre, and are broken only in geoscape anyway. There's also a bunch of low-value factors there: 2. Enemies are similar to players, 3. Tactical challenge, and perhaps 6. Numbers. This is something that hasn't clicked for me before.

usrusr 5y ago
There's a "restart mission" button however which is the antithesis of permadeath. An optional "iron man" mode (I think recent games utilizing the XCOM brand have it?) is something that deserves to be discussed separately.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  I think this restart ability counts the same way as saving/loading. I have forgotten that "iron man" mode is not universal, but indeed, some games are not balanced enough by default to play without saving and loading (UFO: Aftermath would have been very nice otherwise). So yes, the save/load facility is rather normal and a departure from roguelikes.
  - usrusr 5y ago
    I think "ironman mode" deserves a separate discussion, because there is such a wide gap between games where it's merely a higher stakes setting and games where recovery from setbacks is a core element, and not just as a lofty goal ("wouldn't it be nice if people played that way?") but made so interesting that players actually play that way, and not just a tiny fraction of the most masochistic. That difference is best illustrated comparing Crusader Kings and its seemingly similar sibling Europa Universalis: (I'm talking about recent incarnations, I don't know CK1 or EU[123]) CK is full of rebound mechanics that work for both bad decisions and for RNG setbacks, whereas EU is mostly straight-forward 4X where any bit of falling behind ruthlessly compounds.