4 ms·

The study you linked is over 10 years old. Furthermore, it is using lifetime earnings as the core metric, which means they are pulling in data about people who

by nfw2 5y ago

The study you linked is over 10 years old. Furthermore, it is using lifetime earnings as the core metric, which means they are pulling in data about people who earned their degrees like 50 years ago. All the data that currently exists shows better outcomes for students that go to college. One would expect this even if college had no benefit to students because the population of students that go to college is pre-selected. Before they attend, students that go to college, on average, demonstrate better analytic skills than the students that do not go to college. They also, on average, have access to more existing wealth and other resources through their family. In the absence of perfect data (which is almost always the case in sociology), it is reasonable to look at case studies to try to make sense of reality. It is not bad practice. It is what Harvard Business School does. It's what product managers and UX designers do when creating products. It's what marketing teams do when selling products. Feel free to disagree with the interpretation of anecdotal data, but statements should not be dismissed out-of-hand because no p-value accompanies them.

endisneigh 5y ago
I disagree, the overemphasis of anecdotes is why so much misinformation is running rampant these days. Nothing is wrong with going to trade school or boot camp or whatever, or even just being a laborer.
- nfw2 5y ago
  Show me the study that shows that people in this thread are taking it personally. Or did you just rely on anecdotes to determine that?
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  There are a lot of things wrong with doing manual work: Pay sucks dick. Unless you bust ass and work overtime/meet management's obscene expectations (you won't unless you're on meth), your pay is going to suck. If you want a more relaxed environment (residential stuff, "small," few employees, lifestyle biz) your pay is going to be even lower. Commercial pays better, but it's more soul-sucking and kills your body quicker. If you're not in a skilled trade (big 3: plumber/pipefitter, electrician, or HVAC; physical IT/wire-pulling) it's even worse. If you don't have a family/friend connection, good luck breaking in to anything worth anything (that includes a union. If you're non-union, you're basically screwed, unless you're high-skilled/massive amount of certs and can negotiate for yourself). LUNA (or whatever the labor union goes by nowadays) is pretty decent if you've got a lot of problems in your life, but can come to work sober (and on time), do the work without bitching, and be productive. All the other unions worth anything are, once again, almost impossible to get into (unless you wait years, have a connection, or have a track record). Everyone wants to be an electrician (so much so, that even non-union shops aren't accepting any "apprentices,"---cheap labor---that don't already have experience; this is no different from the unions). If you get in, it's a golden meal ticket for the uneducated; but pay caps out quickly (and any white collar professional with a shred of ambition will surpass you in pay in their 30s). Hours are uncertain. You can sometimes be working 2 hours a day, and sometimes 12. Overtime is cool, but it doesn't beat getting home and having a few hours to do anything at all, instead of passing out on the couch and waking up at 5am to go back to work. Past that, any other jobs that pay better (tow truck operator, lineman, etc.) have even worse/more dangerous conditions. Your body will start hurting in your twenties, and you'll feel like you're 60. This won't go away unless you stop doing any physical labor for a while, but if you do that, you won't make money, nor gain "hours" (for those sweet union pay bumps after you pass a certain amount of hours -- regardless if you're the most efficient and most experienced apprentice, you'll still be getting paid the same as the bumfuck nephew of the owner who's only there because family takes care of family). If you're a citizen of the U.S., there's no real reason to do manual labor, unless you really don't care that much about money or starting a family (most people in manual labor). For illegal immigrants, the pay is fucking amazing compared to what they get paid back home. They can work for a few seasons, save up their cash, then go back home where American dollars let you live like royalty. I work in tech now. I get paid more than 2,000x what I did being a tradesmen, my body feels amazing now, I can fuck around all day doing whatever I want because I'm remote, and---in comparison---I barely do any work. These are my anecdotes.
  - meatsauce 5y ago
    Another reason why unions are cancer. Why should some suit get to tell me if I can work in a trade?
  - rmbyrro 5y ago
    Question is: did you go to college?
    - throwaway2331 5y ago
      Went. Dropped out for a variety of reasons. Never went back. Don't have a degree. Definitely made finding a job as a SWE difficult. Pretty hard to break in. I got lucky. I never had any connections/family worth anything, so I learned how to sell/market myself, and I talked my way into all of my early jobs. Pretty straightforward once you figure out the process. Took a long time of eating shit to get there though. I'm also lucky that I was adopted into an upper middle class family, and went to good schools, and interacted with children from successful families. Even if those relationships have done zero for my career prospects, being surrounded by those sorts of people rubs off on you. If I grew up in a working class area, around working class people, my sense of values and my perspective on the world and so on would be a lot narrower, and less likely to lead to great financial success. Some people never had a chance. The communities they're born into, and the people that imprint onto them, can snuff out any hope of moving up and out.
KarlKemp 5y ago
You acknowledge that the data is rather clear on this: education is well correlated with income: https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2020/data-on-display/education-pays.htm https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2020/data-on-display/educa... And while I have sympathy for your story, it isn't much more than what you want to be true. As an example: even a rather stupid medical doctor will tend to earn a lot of money. So, assuming you are capable of getting the degree, it will likely pay well. Another large group goes into teaching, where income is also set mostly by your degree and tenure, not individual skills. None of that is definite. I'm just trying to show how you can spin a story either way. But refuting the data which is clear on this across time and many countries requires more than a good story. The question why you'd want to believe that is rather natural, as are your emotions. The mythological welders with 6-digit incomes are a staple on HN, so it isn't really unusual. I guess it's part of a cluster of attitudes best described as anti-elitism.
- hooande 5y ago
  Read this: > "Before they attend, students that go to college, on average, demonstrate better analytic skills than the students that do not go to college. They also, on average, have access to more existing wealth and other resources through their family." This is a classic example of the concept of "correlation does not equal causation". This is when two things are related, but one does not lead to the other.
  - KarlKemp 5y ago
    Read this: > "But refuting the data which is clear on this across time and many countries requires more than a good story." We all know correlation does not equal causation because we went to college. Or have read a single thread here. But it's still empirical data and, as such, slightly better than motivated storytelling.
    - nfw2 5y ago
      It's not slightly better if you are trying to determine causation. I'm not sure what you think "correlation does not equal causation" means if you think this is the case.
asabjorn 5y ago
That is why it may be better to evaluate the statement "college improve your lot using median outcomes" using outcomes for college graduates that do not come from wealth and that are not skilled enough to get into top-tier universities on merit (use median to avoid outlier sub-groups skewing the average). Basically, if you do not already have a force multiplier is the reward of college worth the huge loan that can't be dismissed in bankruptcy?
- endisneigh 5y ago
  There are studies that already do this and show that regardless of your socioeconomic background you college improves lifetime earnings. Check out my post history for the link.

by nfw2 5y ago

endisneigh 5y ago

I disagree, the overemphasis of anecdotes is why so much misinformation is running rampant these days. Nothing is wrong with going to trade school or boot camp or whatever, or even just being a laborer.

nfw2 5y ago
Show me the study that shows that people in this thread are taking it personally. Or did you just rely on anecdotes to determine that?
throwaway2331 5y ago
There are a lot of things wrong with doing manual work: Pay sucks dick. Unless you bust ass and work overtime/meet management's obscene expectations (you won't unless you're on meth), your pay is going to suck. If you want a more relaxed environment (residential stuff, "small," few employees, lifestyle biz) your pay is going to be even lower. Commercial pays better, but it's more soul-sucking and kills your body quicker. If you're not in a skilled trade (big 3: plumber/pipefitter, electrician, or HVAC; physical IT/wire-pulling) it's even worse. If you don't have a family/friend connection, good luck breaking in to anything worth anything (that includes a union. If you're non-union, you're basically screwed, unless you're high-skilled/massive amount of certs and can negotiate for yourself). LUNA (or whatever the labor union goes by nowadays) is pretty decent if you've got a lot of problems in your life, but can come to work sober (and on time), do the work without bitching, and be productive. All the other unions worth anything are, once again, almost impossible to get into (unless you wait years, have a connection, or have a track record). Everyone wants to be an electrician (so much so, that even non-union shops aren't accepting any "apprentices,"---cheap labor---that don't already have experience; this is no different from the unions). If you get in, it's a golden meal ticket for the uneducated; but pay caps out quickly (and any white collar professional with a shred of ambition will surpass you in pay in their 30s). Hours are uncertain. You can sometimes be working 2 hours a day, and sometimes 12. Overtime is cool, but it doesn't beat getting home and having a few hours to do anything at all, instead of passing out on the couch and waking up at 5am to go back to work. Past that, any other jobs that pay better (tow truck operator, lineman, etc.) have even worse/more dangerous conditions. Your body will start hurting in your twenties, and you'll feel like you're 60. This won't go away unless you stop doing any physical labor for a while, but if you do that, you won't make money, nor gain "hours" (for those sweet union pay bumps after you pass a certain amount of hours -- regardless if you're the most efficient and most experienced apprentice, you'll still be getting paid the same as the bumfuck nephew of the owner who's only there because family takes care of family). If you're a citizen of the U.S., there's no real reason to do manual labor, unless you really don't care that much about money or starting a family (most people in manual labor). For illegal immigrants, the pay is fucking amazing compared to what they get paid back home. They can work for a few seasons, save up their cash, then go back home where American dollars let you live like royalty. I work in tech now. I get paid more than 2,000x what I did being a tradesmen, my body feels amazing now, I can fuck around all day doing whatever I want because I'm remote, and---in comparison---I barely do any work. These are my anecdotes.
- meatsauce 5y ago
  Another reason why unions are cancer. Why should some suit get to tell me if I can work in a trade?
- rmbyrro 5y ago
  Question is: did you go to college?
  - throwaway2331 5y ago
    Went. Dropped out for a variety of reasons. Never went back. Don't have a degree. Definitely made finding a job as a SWE difficult. Pretty hard to break in. I got lucky. I never had any connections/family worth anything, so I learned how to sell/market myself, and I talked my way into all of my early jobs. Pretty straightforward once you figure out the process. Took a long time of eating shit to get there though. I'm also lucky that I was adopted into an upper middle class family, and went to good schools, and interacted with children from successful families. Even if those relationships have done zero for my career prospects, being surrounded by those sorts of people rubs off on you. If I grew up in a working class area, around working class people, my sense of values and my perspective on the world and so on would be a lot narrower, and less likely to lead to great financial success. Some people never had a chance. The communities they're born into, and the people that imprint onto them, can snuff out any hope of moving up and out.

KarlKemp 5y ago

You acknowledge that the data is rather clear on this: education is well correlated with income: https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2020/data-on-display/education-pays.htm https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2020/data-on-display/educa... And while I have sympathy for your story, it isn't much more than what you want to be true. As an example: even a rather stupid medical doctor will tend to earn a lot of money. So, assuming you are capable of getting the degree, it will likely pay well. Another large group goes into teaching, where income is also set mostly by your degree and tenure, not individual skills. None of that is definite. I'm just trying to show how you can spin a story either way. But refuting the data which is clear on this across time and many countries requires more than a good story. The question why you'd want to believe that is rather natural, as are your emotions. The mythological welders with 6-digit incomes are a staple on HN, so it isn't really unusual. I guess it's part of a cluster of attitudes best described as anti-elitism.

hooande 5y ago
Read this: > "Before they attend, students that go to college, on average, demonstrate better analytic skills than the students that do not go to college. They also, on average, have access to more existing wealth and other resources through their family." This is a classic example of the concept of "correlation does not equal causation". This is when two things are related, but one does not lead to the other.
- KarlKemp 5y ago
  Read this: > "But refuting the data which is clear on this across time and many countries requires more than a good story." We all know correlation does not equal causation because we went to college. Or have read a single thread here. But it's still empirical data and, as such, slightly better than motivated storytelling.
  - nfw2 5y ago
    It's not slightly better if you are trying to determine causation. I'm not sure what you think "correlation does not equal causation" means if you think this is the case.

asabjorn 5y ago

That is why it may be better to evaluate the statement "college improve your lot using median outcomes" using outcomes for college graduates that do not come from wealth and that are not skilled enough to get into top-tier universities on merit (use median to avoid outlier sub-groups skewing the average). Basically, if you do not already have a force multiplier is the reward of college worth the huge loan that can't be dismissed in bankruptcy?

endisneigh 5y ago
There are studies that already do this and show that regardless of your socioeconomic background you college improves lifetime earnings. Check out my post history for the link.