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DOJ says encrypted Signal messages used to charge Oath Keepers leader

78 points by nsxwolf 5y ago

nsxwolf 5y ago
I would assume the most likely explanation is an informant was included in the Signal conversations and forwarded the contents along. I wonder if we will get an official statement from Signal.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  Forwarded...or simply handed over their phone (after unlocking it) later as part of a plea deal.
- tracnar 5y ago
  I think Signal provides deniable authentication, i.e. you can forge messages which cannot be distinguished from a real conversations. I wonder if it has any impact legally speaking, but I guess it would not matter unless there's evidence of tampering.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    Signal uses sender certificates and end to end signing the messages. Even if you don't set a pin to enable registration lock and someone steals your phone number temporarily without you noticing and they know who to send the forged messages to everyone will get a big warning message about the key being changed and to verify it's the other person. Unless you just mean completely invent evidence on a controlled device in which case sure just edit the local message database like you would anything.
    - tracnar 5y ago
      I'm referring to this cryptographic property: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniable_authentication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniable_authentication which means that once a message is received you cannot re-authenticate it, so evidence on any device is no better than with unencrypted messaging. This is in contrast with classic public key authentication like PGP which provides further evidence that the message is legit and was indeed sent by who it says.
- beerandt 5y ago
  Isn't this the case where there were more informants and undercover agents than there were actual group members? When you have multiple sources receiving (ie they are the intended recipients) decrypted messages that corroborate each other, the encryption aspect probably becomes all but moot.
  - cyanydeez 5y ago
    No. Good conspiracy though.
    - tata71 5y ago
      You mean "conspiracy theory", right?
  - verdverm 5y ago
    Not sure about this one, but there are questionable actions taken by informant insiders that many might consider entrapment. We've seen this with terrorist cases and more recently with the kidnapping the governor case. Would these people have gone as far as they did without the encouragement and material support of the agencies and informants? Who knows Not sure it's more informants, but they do seem to use more than one
  - namlem 5y ago
    No, that was the plot against governor Whitmer.
madars 5y ago
Source document: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/downl...
- nsxwolf 5y ago
  Interesting. It appears they intercepted audio as well? I see use of [unintelligible] in one place: "Get it, Jess. Do your fucking thing. This is what we fucking [unintellgible] up for. Everything we fucking trained for."
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    Signal includes audio recordings. You just press and hold down the microphone icon.
  - eckmLJE 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure that particular clip came from a Zello chat room. On The Media did a great episode on work they did listening in on these rooms leading up to January 6, and they handed over all of their recordings to the FBI. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-media-road-to-insurrection https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-med...
aaron695 5y ago
Threeve303 5y ago
The only technical solution, not that I have any first hand knowledge of this, would be a remote desktop server running in the secure enclave. Basically everything you do on your phone can be viewed remotely by law enforcement and it seems they only need a warrant if they want to try to use it against you in court. 60 frame per second updates on most iPhone screens, means when connected, it takes 1 frame out of 60, combines each of the 59 frames and sends those over to the secure enclave kernel. Basically just like remote desktop operates. There are other debugging features that can be enabled for the virtual keyboards and so on that can leak information. Sure, you have end to end encryption but that's hardly all of the threat vector. People need to accept that it's far more than metadata, we have no privacy, and in a way we are all locked inside of these virtual jails that keep people locked in like drug addicts.
- pharos92 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nojito 5y ago
  Not without a warrant. Good conspiracy though.
  - Threeve303 5y ago
    Ohhh, you sound so confident! Give it some time…
  - tata71 5y ago
    Surely you mean "conspiracy theory"?
neom 5y ago
This lawyer explains this whole thing, and touches on a the signal messages a little, I interpret what he said as he thinks someone was in the group from the government, but it's not totally clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiCAFV_XBGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiCAFV_XBGc
- asquabventured 5y ago
  That could explain the group chats sure but there are also a couple references to a message and the content from person A to person B. So did the government come into possession of those messages by getting a warrant for the phones and discovering the messages post fact or is there some indication that the government was legally (or illegally) intercepting the messages over the wire?
  - jffry 5y ago
    Either the Feds have compromised Signal's encryption scheme, OR they compromised one of the two people's phones, OR they just got one of the two people to flip and give them access to the message history. I certainly know which one I think is likely.
errantmind 5y ago
Assuming the Signal protocol itself wasn't compromised, this illustrates why it is important to use expiring messages if your goal is privacy. Any device involved in the conversation could have been compromised. In that case the entire message history would be intact. Expiring messages don't completely solve the problem but it can drastically reduce the amount of information available.
hereforphone 5y ago
Surprised this post doesn't have more traction. I guess it's because the subject of the investigation. But we should really be focusing on the privacy aspect.
anomosmarxist 5y ago
egberts1 5y ago
Signal, along with ALL messaging apps/protocols are only secured by the weakest link.

78 points by nsxwolf 5y ago

I would assume the most likely explanation is an informant was included in the Signal conversations and forwarded the contents along. I wonder if we will get an official statement from Signal.

KennyBlanken 5y ago
Forwarded...or simply handed over their phone (after unlocking it) later as part of a plea deal.
tracnar 5y ago
I think Signal provides deniable authentication, i.e. you can forge messages which cannot be distinguished from a real conversations. I wonder if it has any impact legally speaking, but I guess it would not matter unless there's evidence of tampering.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  Signal uses sender certificates and end to end signing the messages. Even if you don't set a pin to enable registration lock and someone steals your phone number temporarily without you noticing and they know who to send the forged messages to everyone will get a big warning message about the key being changed and to verify it's the other person. Unless you just mean completely invent evidence on a controlled device in which case sure just edit the local message database like you would anything.
  - tracnar 5y ago
    I'm referring to this cryptographic property: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniable_authentication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniable_authentication which means that once a message is received you cannot re-authenticate it, so evidence on any device is no better than with unencrypted messaging. This is in contrast with classic public key authentication like PGP which provides further evidence that the message is legit and was indeed sent by who it says.
beerandt 5y ago
Isn't this the case where there were more informants and undercover agents than there were actual group members? When you have multiple sources receiving (ie they are the intended recipients) decrypted messages that corroborate each other, the encryption aspect probably becomes all but moot.
- cyanydeez 5y ago
  No. Good conspiracy though.
  - tata71 5y ago
    You mean "conspiracy theory", right?
- verdverm 5y ago
  Not sure about this one, but there are questionable actions taken by informant insiders that many might consider entrapment. We've seen this with terrorist cases and more recently with the kidnapping the governor case. Would these people have gone as far as they did without the encouragement and material support of the agencies and informants? Who knows Not sure it's more informants, but they do seem to use more than one
- namlem 5y ago
  No, that was the plot against governor Whitmer.

madars 5y ago

Source document: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/downl...

nsxwolf 5y ago
Interesting. It appears they intercepted audio as well? I see use of [unintelligible] in one place: "Get it, Jess. Do your fucking thing. This is what we fucking [unintellgible] up for. Everything we fucking trained for."
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  Signal includes audio recordings. You just press and hold down the microphone icon.
- eckmLJE 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure that particular clip came from a Zello chat room. On The Media did a great episode on work they did listening in on these rooms leading up to January 6, and they handed over all of their recordings to the FBI. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-media-road-to-insurrection https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-med...

aaron695 5y ago

Threeve303 5y ago

The only technical solution, not that I have any first hand knowledge of this, would be a remote desktop server running in the secure enclave. Basically everything you do on your phone can be viewed remotely by law enforcement and it seems they only need a warrant if they want to try to use it against you in court. 60 frame per second updates on most iPhone screens, means when connected, it takes 1 frame out of 60, combines each of the 59 frames and sends those over to the secure enclave kernel. Basically just like remote desktop operates. There are other debugging features that can be enabled for the virtual keyboards and so on that can leak information. Sure, you have end to end encryption but that's hardly all of the threat vector. People need to accept that it's far more than metadata, we have no privacy, and in a way we are all locked inside of these virtual jails that keep people locked in like drug addicts.

pharos92 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nojito 5y ago
Not without a warrant. Good conspiracy though.
- Threeve303 5y ago
  Ohhh, you sound so confident! Give it some time…
- tata71 5y ago
  Surely you mean "conspiracy theory"?

neom 5y ago

This lawyer explains this whole thing, and touches on a the signal messages a little, I interpret what he said as he thinks someone was in the group from the government, but it's not totally clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiCAFV_XBGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiCAFV_XBGc

asquabventured 5y ago
That could explain the group chats sure but there are also a couple references to a message and the content from person A to person B. So did the government come into possession of those messages by getting a warrant for the phones and discovering the messages post fact or is there some indication that the government was legally (or illegally) intercepting the messages over the wire?
- jffry 5y ago
  Either the Feds have compromised Signal's encryption scheme, OR they compromised one of the two people's phones, OR they just got one of the two people to flip and give them access to the message history. I certainly know which one I think is likely.

errantmind 5y ago

Assuming the Signal protocol itself wasn't compromised, this illustrates why it is important to use expiring messages if your goal is privacy. Any device involved in the conversation could have been compromised. In that case the entire message history would be intact. Expiring messages don't completely solve the problem but it can drastically reduce the amount of information available.

hereforphone 5y ago

Surprised this post doesn't have more traction. I guess it's because the subject of the investigation. But we should really be focusing on the privacy aspect.

anomosmarxist 5y ago

egberts1 5y ago

Signal, along with ALL messaging apps/protocols are only secured by the weakest link.