6 ms·

I agree that current doesn't follow the Poynting vector. Power follows the Poynting vector. That's true for antennas and for transmission lines.

tsimionescu 5y ago
Yes, but most power is in fact following the Poynting vector along the wires, not the direct Poynting vector between the battery and the bulb, as the video misleadingly suggests (but doesn't outright claim).
- mannykannot 5y ago
  > Yes, but most power is in fact following the Poynting vector along the wires. Only in the steady state does the Poynting vector follow the wires all around the loop (a point made in the original video.) In the period of interest - well before the EM waves launched by closing the switch have reached the far ends of the transmission lines - it does not, yet during this period, the load is passing a non-trivial current (and therefore dissipating power) that is determined by the voltage of the battery, the resistance of the load, and the characteristic impedances of the two transmission lines. For example, for 24 awg superconducting wire (~0.5mm in diameter) the characteristic impedance for each of the transmission lines would be a little less than 1 kΩ, so with a 12 volt battery, a 2kΩ load would be passing about 3mA and dissipating about 18mW (that is fully 50% of the current it will pass in the steady state.) During this period, there is no energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that goes all around the wire loop, and it would, of course, upend physics if there were! In fact, during this period, it makes no difference whether the far ends of the transmission lines are open- or closed-circuit.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    > During this period, there is no energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that goes all around the wire loop, and it would, of course, upend physics if there were! Even before the steady state is achieved, there is an energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that is moving (at limited speed, ~c) along the wire (but not all around the wire loop yet) - this is of course the moving electric and magnetic field caused by the "chain" of electrons being pushed or pulled. Of course, that will only reach the lightbulb after ~1 second in the original experiment. At the same, time, there is a different, smaller electric field "leaking" through the air/void in a straight line from the battery to everywhere else, which will reach the lightbulb much sooner in the original configuration, and of course this is also carrying some energy. The situation is analogous to what would happen with mechanical waves (at least qualitatively if not quantitatively) - if you were to have the same wires but a source of sound instead of the battery, and a sound detector (or a seismograph) instead of the lightbulb, you would get a pretty similar effect - the "main" sound wave would travel along the wires at the speed of sound in that medium, while some other waves would also travel through the air and ground through the much shorter straight-line distance, and register much more quickly on the seismograph. Of course, there are some significant quantitative differences - there is no sound super-conductor, so some amount of mechanical energy will always be lost along the wires; and sound travels much more slowly through air than through metal wires, so the speed difference will be less noticeable.
    - mannykannot 5y ago
      > Even before the steady state is achieved, there is an energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that is moving (at limited speed, ~c) along the wire (but not all around the wire loop yet)... [my emphasis.] Well, yes, that's one of the points being made in the original video! > At the same, time, there is a different, smaller electric field "leaking" through the air/void in a straight line from the battery to everywhere else, which will reach the lightbulb much sooner in the original configuration, and of course this is also carrying some energy. Well, yes, that is one of the other points being made in the original video! And those effects are not so small as to be trivial - check out the numbers in the example I have provided. Sound is rather different than EM, so one should be careful in arguing from analogies, even if it seems to give the correct answer. Why not just go with the very well-established EM formulae for this situation? in your other reply (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935760) you are essentially saying of course this is all correct! - but the mere fact that this video prompted half a dozen or more videos in response (of wildly varying quality - some of them are laden with non-sequiturs about what would happen in different experiments) indicates that a nontrivial point is being made here, that seems counterintuitive for many people. Given that you are confirming the main points of the video, it is not clear to me why you would call it "extremely misleading, if not technically wrong." In your other reply, you claim that Veritasium is deliberately obscure, but it is not clear to me that one can even make much of a case for him being accidentally less straightforward than he could have been, from this evidence.
      - tsimionescu 5y ago
        I say that he is misleading because of a few points: - he claims the chain analogy is a lie, even though it gives the exact right intuition about the effects. He also obscures the intuition by asking why the energy doesn't go back and forth if the engine pulls the chain back and forth, which is nonsense. - he phrases everything in a way that, to me, suggests that the energy is flowing directly from producer to consumer, when in fact energy is flowing on two separate pathways - radially away from the producer, and along the wires. Energy flow doesn't change if the consumer isn't there, though he seems to me to imply that it does. - he claims that energy flows "outside the wires" and shows diagrams of the Poynting vectors all-around the circuit, but doesn't show that energy flow quickly decreases with distance from the wires, at least for the DC case - he claims that what's happening inside the wires (the movement of the electrons) is not that important, when in fact it is the very movement of those electrons that generates the magnetic field, and the initial moving electric field Overall, the video very explicitly tells you that the movement of the electrons and the chain analogy are wrong and mostly irrelevant to how power is actually transmitted in an electric circuit, which is simply wrong and misleading - even though the fields are an important part, they are intrinsically connected to the movement of electrons, and the chain analogy is pretty good at showing that (a compressive wave analogy would be even closer in some ways). It's also important to note that you are the one talking about transmission line theory - the Veritassium video doesn't, and exclusively talks about Poynting vectors as an explanation, which would make it very hard to come up with a quantitative explanation of the phenomenon.

tsimionescu 5y ago

Yes, but most power is in fact following the Poynting vector along the wires, not the direct Poynting vector between the battery and the bulb, as the video misleadingly suggests (but doesn't outright claim).

mannykannot 5y ago
> Yes, but most power is in fact following the Poynting vector along the wires. Only in the steady state does the Poynting vector follow the wires all around the loop (a point made in the original video.) In the period of interest - well before the EM waves launched by closing the switch have reached the far ends of the transmission lines - it does not, yet during this period, the load is passing a non-trivial current (and therefore dissipating power) that is determined by the voltage of the battery, the resistance of the load, and the characteristic impedances of the two transmission lines. For example, for 24 awg superconducting wire (~0.5mm in diameter) the characteristic impedance for each of the transmission lines would be a little less than 1 kΩ, so with a 12 volt battery, a 2kΩ load would be passing about 3mA and dissipating about 18mW (that is fully 50% of the current it will pass in the steady state.) During this period, there is no energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that goes all around the wire loop, and it would, of course, upend physics if there were! In fact, during this period, it makes no difference whether the far ends of the transmission lines are open- or closed-circuit.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  > During this period, there is no energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that goes all around the wire loop, and it would, of course, upend physics if there were! Even before the steady state is achieved, there is an energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that is moving (at limited speed, ~c) along the wire (but not all around the wire loop yet) - this is of course the moving electric and magnetic field caused by the "chain" of electrons being pushed or pulled. Of course, that will only reach the lightbulb after ~1 second in the original experiment. At the same, time, there is a different, smaller electric field "leaking" through the air/void in a straight line from the battery to everywhere else, which will reach the lightbulb much sooner in the original configuration, and of course this is also carrying some energy. The situation is analogous to what would happen with mechanical waves (at least qualitatively if not quantitatively) - if you were to have the same wires but a source of sound instead of the battery, and a sound detector (or a seismograph) instead of the lightbulb, you would get a pretty similar effect - the "main" sound wave would travel along the wires at the speed of sound in that medium, while some other waves would also travel through the air and ground through the much shorter straight-line distance, and register much more quickly on the seismograph. Of course, there are some significant quantitative differences - there is no sound super-conductor, so some amount of mechanical energy will always be lost along the wires; and sound travels much more slowly through air than through metal wires, so the speed difference will be less noticeable.
  - mannykannot 5y ago
    > Even before the steady state is achieved, there is an energy-transferring chain of physical cause-and-effect that is moving (at limited speed, ~c) along the wire (but not all around the wire loop yet)... [my emphasis.] Well, yes, that's one of the points being made in the original video! > At the same, time, there is a different, smaller electric field "leaking" through the air/void in a straight line from the battery to everywhere else, which will reach the lightbulb much sooner in the original configuration, and of course this is also carrying some energy. Well, yes, that is one of the other points being made in the original video! And those effects are not so small as to be trivial - check out the numbers in the example I have provided. Sound is rather different than EM, so one should be careful in arguing from analogies, even if it seems to give the correct answer. Why not just go with the very well-established EM formulae for this situation? in your other reply (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935760 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935760) you are essentially saying of course this is all correct! - but the mere fact that this video prompted half a dozen or more videos in response (of wildly varying quality - some of them are laden with non-sequiturs about what would happen in different experiments) indicates that a nontrivial point is being made here, that seems counterintuitive for many people. Given that you are confirming the main points of the video, it is not clear to me why you would call it "extremely misleading, if not technically wrong." In your other reply, you claim that Veritasium is deliberately obscure, but it is not clear to me that one can even make much of a case for him being accidentally less straightforward than he could have been, from this evidence.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      I say that he is misleading because of a few points: - he claims the chain analogy is a lie, even though it gives the exact right intuition about the effects. He also obscures the intuition by asking why the energy doesn't go back and forth if the engine pulls the chain back and forth, which is nonsense. - he phrases everything in a way that, to me, suggests that the energy is flowing directly from producer to consumer, when in fact energy is flowing on two separate pathways - radially away from the producer, and along the wires. Energy flow doesn't change if the consumer isn't there, though he seems to me to imply that it does. - he claims that energy flows "outside the wires" and shows diagrams of the Poynting vectors all-around the circuit, but doesn't show that energy flow quickly decreases with distance from the wires, at least for the DC case - he claims that what's happening inside the wires (the movement of the electrons) is not that important, when in fact it is the very movement of those electrons that generates the magnetic field, and the initial moving electric field Overall, the video very explicitly tells you that the movement of the electrons and the chain analogy are wrong and mostly irrelevant to how power is actually transmitted in an electric circuit, which is simply wrong and misleading - even though the fields are an important part, they are intrinsically connected to the movement of electrons, and the chain analogy is pretty good at showing that (a compressive wave analogy would be even closer in some ways). It's also important to note that you are the one talking about transmission line theory - the Veritassium video doesn't, and exclusively talks about Poynting vectors as an explanation, which would make it very hard to come up with a quantitative explanation of the phenomenon.