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See, I think this is just wrong. I think that we specifically shouldn't be getting involved in costly international conflicts to "help people". I think charity

See, I think this is just wrong. I think that we specifically shouldn't be getting involved in costly international conflicts to "help people". I think charity is pretty different, as there isn't a risk of a huge pushback when donating to charity. Whereas getting involved with this Ukraine situation could potentially result in a war. I don't think the US should be willing to go to war over this country that has historically been a part of Russia and is so far from our borders that it practically is geopolitically insignificant.

reducesuffering 5y ago
This is the same isolationist indifference by the US and Chamberlain's UK precipitating WW2. No is better off when the world gives free rein for authoritarians to exploit other peoples. The US and NATO isn't going to war over Ukraine. They will slap Russia with harsher sanctions (still won't cut off gas though!), cut them from SWIFT financial transactions, at which point Russian banks will switch to Russian SPFS which China and Europe, reluctantly, will implement to keep gas flowing. Only thing that changed is the Ukrainian people keep becoming worse off.
- uejfiweun 5y ago
  OK, that's fair. I am actually curious though about your take on the sanctions. Do you have any resources to recommend for reading up on this SWIFT system and the SPFS alternative? And does this imply that Europe and China will side with Russia against the US?
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    Here's some good context from Alperovitch, Russian-American founder of CrowdStrike that now does international cybersecurity policy: https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1478353987480997897 https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1478353987480997897 The wiki for SWIFT is a good start, imagine SPFS as SWIFT just under Russian gov. control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interbank_Financial_Telecommunication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interban... It's not so much that Europe and China will "side" against the US, as they will not care enough about Russia's actions to deter them from trading with Russia. Europe will obviously care a lot more about Russia's aggression, but they are going through major energy price pains right now and they likely won't stomach further supply decreases by stopping gas trade with Russia.
democracy 5y ago
It depends on how you look at it - what if Russia is historically part of Ukraine? Once Kiev was the capital of Russia ))) Can UK attack USA because once USA was owned by England? How about Russia claiming part of California or Alaska? Same for France and Louisiana? Geopolitically it is very significant, it threatens Europe and as with another example from the last century, if you don't stop the evil early - you will pay with millions of lives later.

reducesuffering 5y ago

This is the same isolationist indifference by the US and Chamberlain's UK precipitating WW2. No is better off when the world gives free rein for authoritarians to exploit other peoples. The US and NATO isn't going to war over Ukraine. They will slap Russia with harsher sanctions (still won't cut off gas though!), cut them from SWIFT financial transactions, at which point Russian banks will switch to Russian SPFS which China and Europe, reluctantly, will implement to keep gas flowing. Only thing that changed is the Ukrainian people keep becoming worse off.

uejfiweun 5y ago
OK, that's fair. I am actually curious though about your take on the sanctions. Do you have any resources to recommend for reading up on this SWIFT system and the SPFS alternative? And does this imply that Europe and China will side with Russia against the US?
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  Here's some good context from Alperovitch, Russian-American founder of CrowdStrike that now does international cybersecurity policy: https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1478353987480997897 https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1478353987480997897 The wiki for SWIFT is a good start, imagine SPFS as SWIFT just under Russian gov. control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interbank_Financial_Telecommunication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interban... It's not so much that Europe and China will "side" against the US, as they will not care enough about Russia's actions to deter them from trading with Russia. Europe will obviously care a lot more about Russia's aggression, but they are going through major energy price pains right now and they likely won't stomach further supply decreases by stopping gas trade with Russia.

democracy 5y ago

It depends on how you look at it - what if Russia is historically part of Ukraine? Once Kiev was the capital of Russia ))) Can UK attack USA because once USA was owned by England? How about Russia claiming part of California or Alaska? Same for France and Louisiana? Geopolitically it is very significant, it threatens Europe and as with another example from the last century, if you don't stop the evil early - you will pay with millions of lives later.