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See I listen to people who know what they are talking about on this topic, people like Ray McGovern the former head of the soviet desk for the CIA, and I find t

See I listen to people who know what they are talking about on this topic, people like Ray McGovern the former head of the soviet desk for the CIA, and I find their comments refreshingly nuanced, explaining things like how we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato, etc. ...and then I see comments like yours that just seem to want to make Russia into this mustache twirling always evil villian and to me its people like you destroying hopes for good conversation that seem like the real villians.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> how we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato This purported promise is a myth, see my comments here [1]. (TL; DR No treaty or public comments. Russia, on the other hand, signed a treaty promising not to invade Ukraine when she denuclearised. Talk of broken promises is a red herring.) Russia has a realpolitik interest in creating buffer nations between it and the West. What it's doing--invading Crimea and now threatening to take the rest--doesn't further that goal. It does, however, serve Putin's political agenda. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29924836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29924836
nickpp 5y ago
Yeah maybe you should try listen to the people who lived in the countries under Russian influence and you'll find thing are a lot less nuanced here. We know exactly who the real villains were since we had friends and relatives who died at their hands. The scars are still here, the memories still alive, the monstrosity still visits us in our nightmares. We would do anything to prevent that from happening to us again. Sorry if I am destroying your good, nuanced conversation.
reducesuffering 5y ago
> we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato, etc. This is what Russia is promoting but it's a gross exaggeration. When the Berlin Wall fell, The Secretary of State at the time, James Baker, threw this out there to Gorbachev in early treaty talks as a "what if?", but others in US gov. said absolutely not, it never made it in the treaty, and Gorbachev never pushed for it. Gorbachev himself said that no promise or treaty was violated, but it was against the "spirit" of the assurances. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> how we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato This purported promise is a myth, see my comments here [1]. (TL; DR No treaty or public comments. Russia, on the other hand, signed a treaty promising not to invade Ukraine when she denuclearised. Talk of broken promises is a red herring.) Russia has a realpolitik interest in creating buffer nations between it and the West. What it's doing--invading Crimea and now threatening to take the rest--doesn't further that goal. It does, however, serve Putin's political agenda. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29924836 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29924836

nickpp 5y ago

Yeah maybe you should try listen to the people who lived in the countries under Russian influence and you'll find thing are a lot less nuanced here. We know exactly who the real villains were since we had friends and relatives who died at their hands. The scars are still here, the memories still alive, the monstrosity still visits us in our nightmares. We would do anything to prevent that from happening to us again. Sorry if I am destroying your good, nuanced conversation.

reducesuffering 5y ago

> we promised Russia we wouldnt do an eastward expansion of nato, etc. This is what Russia is promoting but it's a gross exaggeration. When the Berlin Wall fell, The Secretary of State at the time, James Baker, threw this out there to Gorbachev in early treaty talks as a "what if?", but others in US gov. said absolutely not, it never made it in the treaty, and Gorbachev never pushed for it. Gorbachev himself said that no promise or treaty was violated, but it was against the "spirit" of the assurances. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...