5 ms·

It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Remember that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea "to save Russian citizens".

bumby 5y ago
>It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. I mean, isn't this also the tactic used in the late 1800s in the western U.S. to give a reason to pacify Native Americans? Promote U.S. citizens into frontier homesteads and then use the military to protect them/annex land?
- kaczordon 5y ago
  Not sure why’re your bringing the U.S. into this right now to bash it. If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed.
  - yongjik 5y ago
    I don't think GP is trying to bash the US: they're just pointing out it's "the oldest trick in the book." Obviously that doesn't mean it's OK that Russia is doing it.
    - bumby 5y ago
      Correct, I was merely underscoring the historic use of the tactic and not "bashing" any country
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    >If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed. Why? What purpose does this serve?
- ellyagg 5y ago
  Sure, so if you're a big fan of one you'll be a big fan of the other.
- mrguyorama 5y ago
  Yes, and we did the same thing to mexico in order to grab texas. How the heck does this change how bad it is? What's the point of saying "America bad too"? So? America HAS done awful things in the past, that's not valid justification for a hostile annexation of another country's land. Topics on Russia ALWAYS have whataboutism nonsense. It seems supporters of Russian actions so badly want the rest of the world to be shitty too, as if that would justify their actions instead of condemn them as well as everyone else
  - bumby 5y ago
    Being HN, I may have given too much credit that a comment would be taken at face value and not focused through a nationalistic lens or viewed as some sort of attack. I made no claims that it changes whether the practice is morally or ethically correct. I also didn't claim "America bad too." I merely pointed out another data point relevant to the GP comment about it being an old tactic to annex land. *btw, it's Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and parts of California. The book Blood and Thunder is a great read about the history of expansion of the West
  - shashurup 5y ago
    I believe the reason is that russians often perceive western worldview as a voice from the ivory tower of free world implying some kind of moral superiority. The whataboutism is just an awkward attempt to decline this very moral superiority.
elcritch 5y ago
To be fair Crimea does have a majority ethnic Russian inhabitants. Wikipedia lists Crimea's demographics as 65% while others were lower at 58% or thereabout. Given many of those Russians were there from the Soviet era or direct descendants, it doesn't seem too crazy of a claim. The US and NATO countries have done worse for less. Now invading Ukraine? Thats another thing altogether.
- dnautics 5y ago
  Without defending russia: the same argument does apply for selected parts of ukraine that still have not been yet annexed by russia. I wonder how long it will take for russia to get tired of subsidizing crimea and they will beg to go back to the ukraine.
  - avmich 5y ago
    > I wonder how long it will take for russia to get tired of subsidizing crimea and they will beg to go back to the ukraine. Starting already. I mean, more than before. I found Crimeans not very understanding Russia's realities, so now even thought money go to Crimea from the rest of Russia, the people in Crimea start to compare unfavorably to the alternative. History moves slowly. However, Ukraine going closer to Europe would be a good illustration.
  - andy-x 5y ago
    Not going to happen, major reason for annexation was to keep Sebastopol as the major/only Russia navy base in the Black Sea. That reason will never vanish as there are no other suitable locations to relocate that base.
- vizzah 5y ago
  There was no imminent danger to those inhabitans when Russia annexed. They just seized the opportunity to take back important xUSSR territory. The inhabitants are mostly happy, though, as they were promised new horizons and no mandatory Ukrainian language, which they never spoken. All these regional problems are mainly due to the language. If Ukraine allowed Russian as it's second official (or at least regional) language, Donbas would return back in a blink. And Crimea might follow.
VictorPath 5y ago
> Russia invaded and annexed Crimea Russia invaded Crimea back when British red coats were stationed in New York City. The Russian military has been there ever since. When did the US invade the Guantanamo section of Cuba?
- stfods 5y ago
  Russia has signed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Frie... in 1999 As mentioned in article 2, the High Contracting Parties shall respect each other′s territorial integrity and reaffirm the inviolability of the borders existing between them
- avmich 5y ago
  > When did the US invade the Guantanamo section of Cuba? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guant%C3%A1namo#United_States_Naval_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guant%C3%A1namo#United_States_... About 15 km away from the city lies the Guantánamo Bay, a superior natural harbor which has been utilized by the United States since 1898, when it was captured from Spain in the Battle of Guantánamo Bay. In 1903 Cuba leased it to the U.S. as it had committed to in the Cuban–American Treaty of Relations, and remains the site of a US Navy base, as well as the Guantanamo Bay detention camp.
- PolandKid 5y ago
  >> 6 month old account, 90% comments some sort of Russian great state content. Does YCombinator ban trolls, these days?
ozheleztsov 5y ago
It is indeed an annexation. But it is also true that the majority of the inhabitants of Crimea are Russians and wanted to return to join Russia. But all the consequences, not the cause. The reason, in my opinion, is the global conflict between the West and Russia. And, obviously, the fall of Russia is just a matter of time. Despite the fact that they have weapons, in everyday life, all residents use technologies and products made in the west. Everyone has an iPhone, Laptop, Internet, car, etc. How can you win a conflict if every inhabitant of your country is completely dependent on technology, software, products and money created by a conditional "enemy"?
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  I have not seen any data on the crimeans actually bring a majority ethnic Russians and eager to 'return' to Russia (which one? USSR ? Catherine's Russian empire? ...?). They just did a very questionable referendum once Crimea was occupied to annex the territory.
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    Crimea being majority Russian ethnicity is not disputed like the referendum is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics

>It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. I mean, isn't this also the tactic used in the late 1800s in the western U.S. to give a reason to pacify Native Americans? Promote U.S. citizens into frontier homesteads and then use the military to protect them/annex land?

kaczordon 5y ago
Not sure why’re your bringing the U.S. into this right now to bash it. If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed.
- yongjik 5y ago
  I don't think GP is trying to bash the US: they're just pointing out it's "the oldest trick in the book." Obviously that doesn't mean it's OK that Russia is doing it.
  - bumby 5y ago
    Correct, I was merely underscoring the historic use of the tactic and not "bashing" any country
- remarkEon 5y ago
  >If anything increased U.S. military presence in Poland is sorely needed. Why? What purpose does this serve?
ellyagg 5y ago
Sure, so if you're a big fan of one you'll be a big fan of the other.
mrguyorama 5y ago
Yes, and we did the same thing to mexico in order to grab texas. How the heck does this change how bad it is? What's the point of saying "America bad too"? So? America HAS done awful things in the past, that's not valid justification for a hostile annexation of another country's land. Topics on Russia ALWAYS have whataboutism nonsense. It seems supporters of Russian actions so badly want the rest of the world to be shitty too, as if that would justify their actions instead of condemn them as well as everyone else
- bumby 5y ago
  Being HN, I may have given too much credit that a comment would be taken at face value and not focused through a nationalistic lens or viewed as some sort of attack. I made no claims that it changes whether the practice is morally or ethically correct. I also didn't claim "America bad too." I merely pointed out another data point relevant to the GP comment about it being an old tactic to annex land. *btw, it's Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and parts of California. The book Blood and Thunder is a great read about the history of expansion of the West
- shashurup 5y ago
  I believe the reason is that russians often perceive western worldview as a voice from the ivory tower of free world implying some kind of moral superiority. The whataboutism is just an awkward attempt to decline this very moral superiority.

elcritch 5y ago

To be fair Crimea does have a majority ethnic Russian inhabitants. Wikipedia lists Crimea's demographics as 65% while others were lower at 58% or thereabout. Given many of those Russians were there from the Soviet era or direct descendants, it doesn't seem too crazy of a claim. The US and NATO countries have done worse for less. Now invading Ukraine? Thats another thing altogether.

dnautics 5y ago
Without defending russia: the same argument does apply for selected parts of ukraine that still have not been yet annexed by russia. I wonder how long it will take for russia to get tired of subsidizing crimea and they will beg to go back to the ukraine.
- avmich 5y ago
  > I wonder how long it will take for russia to get tired of subsidizing crimea and they will beg to go back to the ukraine. Starting already. I mean, more than before. I found Crimeans not very understanding Russia's realities, so now even thought money go to Crimea from the rest of Russia, the people in Crimea start to compare unfavorably to the alternative. History moves slowly. However, Ukraine going closer to Europe would be a good illustration.
- andy-x 5y ago
  Not going to happen, major reason for annexation was to keep Sebastopol as the major/only Russia navy base in the Black Sea. That reason will never vanish as there are no other suitable locations to relocate that base.
vizzah 5y ago
There was no imminent danger to those inhabitans when Russia annexed. They just seized the opportunity to take back important xUSSR territory. The inhabitants are mostly happy, though, as they were promised new horizons and no mandatory Ukrainian language, which they never spoken. All these regional problems are mainly due to the language. If Ukraine allowed Russian as it's second official (or at least regional) language, Donbas would return back in a blink. And Crimea might follow.

VictorPath 5y ago

> Russia invaded and annexed Crimea Russia invaded Crimea back when British red coats were stationed in New York City. The Russian military has been there ever since. When did the US invade the Guantanamo section of Cuba?

stfods 5y ago
Russia has signed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Frie... in 1999 As mentioned in article 2, the High Contracting Parties shall respect each other′s territorial integrity and reaffirm the inviolability of the borders existing between them
avmich 5y ago
> When did the US invade the Guantanamo section of Cuba? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guant%C3%A1namo#United_States_Naval_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guant%C3%A1namo#United_States_... About 15 km away from the city lies the Guantánamo Bay, a superior natural harbor which has been utilized by the United States since 1898, when it was captured from Spain in the Battle of Guantánamo Bay. In 1903 Cuba leased it to the U.S. as it had committed to in the Cuban–American Treaty of Relations, and remains the site of a US Navy base, as well as the Guantanamo Bay detention camp.
PolandKid 5y ago
>> 6 month old account, 90% comments some sort of Russian great state content. Does YCombinator ban trolls, these days?

ozheleztsov 5y ago

It is indeed an annexation. But it is also true that the majority of the inhabitants of Crimea are Russians and wanted to return to join Russia. But all the consequences, not the cause. The reason, in my opinion, is the global conflict between the West and Russia. And, obviously, the fall of Russia is just a matter of time. Despite the fact that they have weapons, in everyday life, all residents use technologies and products made in the west. Everyone has an iPhone, Laptop, Internet, car, etc. How can you win a conflict if every inhabitant of your country is completely dependent on technology, software, products and money created by a conditional "enemy"?

estaseuropano 5y ago
I have not seen any data on the crimeans actually bring a majority ethnic Russians and eager to 'return' to Russia (which one? USSR ? Catherine's Russian empire? ...?). They just did a very questionable referendum once Crimea was occupied to annex the territory.
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  Crimea being majority Russian ethnicity is not disputed like the referendum is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics