4 ms·

Remember how grindy world of Warcraft used to be? I mean it’s still grindy but remember how much worse it was? Well let me tell you a secret: when it came out

Remember how grindy world of Warcraft used to be? I mean it’s still grindy but remember how much worse it was? Well let me tell you a secret: when it came out in 2004 people were talking about how it was turning MMOs into very casual play because of how little grind there is compared to EQ and others. Games were always work. Not all of them, of course, but this isn’t a new thing. It’s just that there are genres of games that are better suited to the grind; they come and go.

input_sh 5y ago
What's EQ in this context?
- scrollaway 5y ago
  EverQuest, sorry for the undefined acronym.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  Everquest.
- powersurge360 5y ago
  Likely to be EverQuest
mattmanser 5y ago
You're talking about MMOs, who have always been a very different beast. People spend orders of magnitude more time playing them, mainly socializing. Which means they need a lot of grindy content to keep people occupied while they chat.
2pEXgD0fZ5cF 5y ago
Your example leaves out a ton of aspects and how the MMO landscape has changed since then. First of all MMOs are not strictly comparable to regular single and multiplayer games. Back then MMOs were very grindy, that much is correct. However you have to take a moment to think about the reasons for that. One of the main reasons is that in old school MMOs socializing was a very major part of the appeal and made up large portions of your gametime, you were required to cooperate and coordinate with people manually (form groups, guilds, trading etc.). WoW is a good example, because it was very similar back in 2004, but made many aspects, especially playing alone much easier than e.g. EQ. So what does it mean when people say that modern day WoW feels more like work than oldschool WoW? The reason is that many many social components are gone from modern day WoW, it now has automatic systems in place for pretty much every aspect of the game, most content is soloable, and the parts where a group is required offer systems to automatically search and find players etc.. In short: basically no manual communication is required in WoW nowadays to see and complete almost basically everything the game has to offer. There is one exception: there are versions of parts of the content that is just harder versions. What makes modern WoW feel more like work than oldschool MMOs? The reason is that the game design intentionally keeps you locked in a very tight loop, many parts are designed in a way to keep them from being completed too quickly, many parts build on "daily quests" that can be completed exactly once per day/week, but no more than that. There is much more nuance to this, but in short it can easily create the feeling that you have to show up to play certain content you don't enjoy and if you don't you lose progress/time you can't catch up on. Think "oh no I still have to login today to get my daily quests done...", players typically complete missions/quests like that not because they are fun, but because they are working towards a reward. But since ingame mechanics have killed the need for social cooperations and interactions (this is not strictly a negative thing, and a hard problem to balance) it creates an atmosphere that is a very different flavour of grind than back in the day, which is closer to some kind of work obligation as opposed to a virtual world you go to to adventure and meet with other people.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  I’m glad you replied, because your post says a lot of things I wanted to say, but didn’t want to type on the terrible iOS keyboard. That said, while MMOs were always a class of their own I don’t think it’s unfair to compare them to other modern games. There are many of their aspects that just moved to other games. Their social aspects moved to actual social networks (which didn’t really exist back then), their grind moved to mobile apps, and the whole virtual world moved to more sandboxy games such as Minecraft and its cousins.
throwaway675309 5y ago
That's such a terrible design pattern for games. And it's one of the reasons that I found mmos baffling from the very first moment that they were created. If a game isn't 100% FUN 100% OF THE TIME then the designers have failed. I shouldn't have to do X amount of things before I'm able to get to the actual game, and if somebody says "well once you get past the first couple hours of the game it starts to get fun."... then I won't even bother. this is also one of the reasons that I tend to prefer carefully crafted narrative style games (8-10 hour experiences) that are shorter in length then huge open sandbox worlds that you play for hundreds of hours.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Apparently MMOs used to contain huge grind because they were half chat clients, half games. So you would spend an hour chatting with people, while also mining rocks.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  Im not defending the grind, but this is completely untrue: > If a game isn't 100% FUN 100% OF THE TIME then the designers have failed. For high highs, you need lows as well. My personal highest, most epic moments in games I played are from beating and besting truly frustrating and difficult challenges. Knowing how to design challenge and frustration is a difficult exercise. There are many different types of difficulty you can use as a designer and some are better received than others. The best games make you feel like you can beat the challenge, and it is entirely within your reach as long as you learn. Twitch games (as in reaction games not streamer-friendly games) are an excellent example. Geometry Dash is immediately difficult but also immediately approachable and if you don’t have fun the first few minutes, the game probably isn’t for you. Beat Saber is another good example. It can be incredibly frustrating, in the same way that trying to beat your personal best 100m sprint record can be.
- oreally 5y ago
  Spoken like an armchair designer, with a huge bias at that. Game designers know that you have to splice in boring moments into their games so that the next dopamine shot has more impact. You can't do 100% fun all of the time. This is why god of war is peppered with puzzles to break the sequence. MMOs specifically need a social experience, and if you're 100% engrossed in the fun there will be no time for the socializing.

input_sh 5y ago

What's EQ in this context?

scrollaway 5y ago
EverQuest, sorry for the undefined acronym.
JaimeThompson 5y ago
Everquest.
powersurge360 5y ago
Likely to be EverQuest

mattmanser 5y ago

You're talking about MMOs, who have always been a very different beast. People spend orders of magnitude more time playing them, mainly socializing. Which means they need a lot of grindy content to keep people occupied while they chat.

2pEXgD0fZ5cF 5y ago

Your example leaves out a ton of aspects and how the MMO landscape has changed since then. First of all MMOs are not strictly comparable to regular single and multiplayer games. Back then MMOs were very grindy, that much is correct. However you have to take a moment to think about the reasons for that. One of the main reasons is that in old school MMOs socializing was a very major part of the appeal and made up large portions of your gametime, you were required to cooperate and coordinate with people manually (form groups, guilds, trading etc.). WoW is a good example, because it was very similar back in 2004, but made many aspects, especially playing alone much easier than e.g. EQ. So what does it mean when people say that modern day WoW feels more like work than oldschool WoW? The reason is that many many social components are gone from modern day WoW, it now has automatic systems in place for pretty much every aspect of the game, most content is soloable, and the parts where a group is required offer systems to automatically search and find players etc.. In short: basically no manual communication is required in WoW nowadays to see and complete almost basically everything the game has to offer. There is one exception: there are versions of parts of the content that is just harder versions. What makes modern WoW feel more like work than oldschool MMOs? The reason is that the game design intentionally keeps you locked in a very tight loop, many parts are designed in a way to keep them from being completed too quickly, many parts build on "daily quests" that can be completed exactly once per day/week, but no more than that. There is much more nuance to this, but in short it can easily create the feeling that you have to show up to play certain content you don't enjoy and if you don't you lose progress/time you can't catch up on. Think "oh no I still have to login today to get my daily quests done...", players typically complete missions/quests like that not because they are fun, but because they are working towards a reward. But since ingame mechanics have killed the need for social cooperations and interactions (this is not strictly a negative thing, and a hard problem to balance) it creates an atmosphere that is a very different flavour of grind than back in the day, which is closer to some kind of work obligation as opposed to a virtual world you go to to adventure and meet with other people.

scrollaway 5y ago
I’m glad you replied, because your post says a lot of things I wanted to say, but didn’t want to type on the terrible iOS keyboard. That said, while MMOs were always a class of their own I don’t think it’s unfair to compare them to other modern games. There are many of their aspects that just moved to other games. Their social aspects moved to actual social networks (which didn’t really exist back then), their grind moved to mobile apps, and the whole virtual world moved to more sandboxy games such as Minecraft and its cousins.

throwaway675309 5y ago

That's such a terrible design pattern for games. And it's one of the reasons that I found mmos baffling from the very first moment that they were created. If a game isn't 100% FUN 100% OF THE TIME then the designers have failed. I shouldn't have to do X amount of things before I'm able to get to the actual game, and if somebody says "well once you get past the first couple hours of the game it starts to get fun."... then I won't even bother. this is also one of the reasons that I tend to prefer carefully crafted narrative style games (8-10 hour experiences) that are shorter in length then huge open sandbox worlds that you play for hundreds of hours.

Gigachad 5y ago
Apparently MMOs used to contain huge grind because they were half chat clients, half games. So you would spend an hour chatting with people, while also mining rocks.
scrollaway 5y ago
Im not defending the grind, but this is completely untrue: > If a game isn't 100% FUN 100% OF THE TIME then the designers have failed. For high highs, you need lows as well. My personal highest, most epic moments in games I played are from beating and besting truly frustrating and difficult challenges. Knowing how to design challenge and frustration is a difficult exercise. There are many different types of difficulty you can use as a designer and some are better received than others. The best games make you feel like you can beat the challenge, and it is entirely within your reach as long as you learn. Twitch games (as in reaction games not streamer-friendly games) are an excellent example. Geometry Dash is immediately difficult but also immediately approachable and if you don’t have fun the first few minutes, the game probably isn’t for you. Beat Saber is another good example. It can be incredibly frustrating, in the same way that trying to beat your personal best 100m sprint record can be.
oreally 5y ago
Spoken like an armchair designer, with a huge bias at that. Game designers know that you have to splice in boring moments into their games so that the next dopamine shot has more impact. You can't do 100% fun all of the time. This is why god of war is peppered with puzzles to break the sequence. MMOs specifically need a social experience, and if you're 100% engrossed in the fun there will be no time for the socializing.