6 ms·

I don't blame Russia's stance. I blame the cold war and the US's two pronged approach to most diplomacy matters. NATO was formed to halt the power of the soviet

by dzonga 5y ago

I don't blame Russia's stance. I blame the cold war and the US's two pronged approach to most diplomacy matters. NATO was formed to halt the power of the soviet union. once the soviet union fell. NATO should've been disbanded. anyone with a pea of a brain would've seen the consequences of not abandoning nato, and now we're about to pay for those mistakes.

dzonga 5y ago
as a follow up, I should add that I'm not advocating for Ukraine to be invaded. War is a racket. I'm advocating for things military alliances like Nato etc to be abandoned in times of peace.
- timeon 5y ago
  Imagine if Ukraine was in NATO. We would not have this discussion because there will be no tanks surrounding Ukraine like they are today.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  These aren't times of peace. These are times of teetering on the knife-edge of open war. And we learned a while ago about being unprepared when the shooting starts. It's not fun.
sc68cal 5y ago
Absolutely. and this is a view shared by prominent US national security officials, that it is the United States that has caused this crisis. https://theanalysis.news/is-nato-for-security-or-aggression-wilkerson-engler/ https://theanalysis.news/is-nato-for-security-or-aggression-... Remember, it was the United States that broke the promise to not expand NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union. > Paul Jay >Crazy! Larry, how much of this is driven essentially, really by what domestic politics, that you get this saber-rattle and look all huff and puff on both sides, not just the American and west side, but the same thing goes for Putin, satisfying the nationalist fervor in Russia. And two, and maybe this is the most important thing, continuing this rationale of enormous arms purchases, and NATO helps keep all these countries within at least the Western arms market and mostly the American arms market, but they can’t be serious about actually fighting? They know what a shitstorm that leads to. > Larry Wilkerson >I hope you’re right. The history of warfare, especially major warfare in the last 200 years or so, doesn’t support that logic. Let me go back to something Yves said. I think one of the greatest travesties of US foreign policy in the last 25-30 years, and that’s a lot of things, including the invasion of Iraq, was the violation of Jim Bakker and Eduard Shevardnadze, and ultimately Reagan and Herbert Walker Bush, and Gorbachev’s promise that NATO would not go one step further East if Germany were allowed to reunify and remain in NATO.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > it was the United States that broke the promise to not expand NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union This promise is a myth [1]. At best, it was an informal statement by some guy in the U.S. government [2]. This has been blown out of proportion beyond any semblance to reality by Putin's propaganda. And if it had happened, it would have been an agreement with the Soviet Union. Which does not exist. Russia, in 1994, formally agreed to "respect...Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders" and "refrain from the threat or the use of force against...Ukraine," among other things. It has flagrantly broken these agreements. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-... [2] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057%2Fs41311-020-00224-w https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057%2Fs41311-020-00224...
  - sc68cal 5y ago
    Citing a blog post by the Brookings Institution is very funny to me. They were one of many think tanks in Washington that built the intellectual groundwork to justify the expansion of NATO in the first place.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Citing a blog post by the Brookings Institution is very funny to me There is no shortage of sources on the ambiguity of this alleged promise [1][2]. More critically, there is a total absence of sources from Putin. Because he doesn't have any. Because when nations agree to things, they do so by issuing public declarations and/or signing treaties. [1] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/us/politics/russia-ukraine-james-baker.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/us/politics/russia-ukrain...
      - stfods 5y ago
        Absolutely, also that's Russia who doesn't respect even signed agreements. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Frie... .. signed in 1997, which fixed the principle of strategic partnership, the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, and respect for territorial integrity and mutual commitment not to use its territory to harm the security of each other.
alkonaut 5y ago
Remember that we were in a similar situation in 2014. And at that point it was about the EU, not NATO. Since then Russia has invaded annexed part of Ukraine. So no one observing this should be fooled to think that NATO is really relevant at all. The NATO talk from Russia now is chosen as an impossible demand because they know it’s impossible. It’s used to be able to point fingers and say “look, they are being unreasonable”. The audience is domestic. Whether NATO should be disbanded or not isn’t exactly a point on the agenda, nor is it fair to say that Ukraine (not a NATO member) has any responsibility in it. What should Ukraine do here? promise to never join NATO? At gunpoint? In what way does that respect the sovereignty of Ukraine? (The same way it’s borders are respected apparently).
nullifidian 5y ago
>I don't blame Russia's stance. As a Russian I say you are completely wrong. The current crisis is entirely manufactured by Putin and his authoritarian needs, which are contrary to the actual needs of the Russian people. The Baltic states joined NATO in 2004, and there isn't much difference in nuke flight time between a launch from Latvia or from Kharkiv, so the entire premise that Ukraine potentially joining NATO somehow threatens Russia is a ruse. What's really going on is that Putin's popularity is falling, and he needs a) distractions b) to fullfill the imperialistic need that has been propagandized out of every hole for the last 15+ years (I.e the need Putin himself created), and through that increase his popularity. For some time the conflict in the eastern Ukraine served that purpose, but people's eyes and ears got tired of that, so he has to up the stakes. Also an endless conflict with a great adversary is a good justification to further limit the scraps of freedom that remain, and justify the poor state of the economy, arrest people for being "foreign agents" etc etc -- something that the North Korean monarchy has perfected. >NATO should've been disbanded. If that happened the Baltic states would have already been occupied by Russia, to protect the Russian minority of course. Nobody forced east European countries to join NATO, it's in their interest, it preserves their sovereignty. America is imperialist too, but it's much more benign imperialism, focused on furthering globalism, democratic rule, and capitalists' profits. Russian imperialism only brings submission and authoritarianism -- the main narrative is sacrificing oneself for the imperialist rodina like the деды.
- esarbe 5y ago
  Is there any reliable (international) source for Russian internal affairs that is not tainted by state propaganda? Can you give a recommendation?
  - nullifidian 5y ago
    Understanding a country without knowing the language/culture is an endeavor fraught with failure in my opinion. The only way is to learn the language, learn the cultural differences(preferably at least partially from "field experience", not that it's advisable as of late), and read the same things a curious Russian would.
vzaliva 5y ago
As Ukrainian I DO blame Russia's stance here. Ukraine is a free independent democratic country. It is free to join any alliances it wishes. This is not the reason to pre-emptively attack it. Also it is totally unprovoked. It is not like Ukraine is joining or welcomed to NATO anytime soon. The real reason is that Putin afraid of Ukraine: https://medium.com/@krokodil42/why-is-russia-afraid-of-ukraine-ca11171b7ac3 https://medium.com/@krokodil42/why-is-russia-afraid-of-ukrai...

by dzonga 5y ago

dzonga 5y ago

as a follow up, I should add that I'm not advocating for Ukraine to be invaded. War is a racket. I'm advocating for things military alliances like Nato etc to be abandoned in times of peace.

timeon 5y ago
Imagine if Ukraine was in NATO. We would not have this discussion because there will be no tanks surrounding Ukraine like they are today.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
These aren't times of peace. These are times of teetering on the knife-edge of open war. And we learned a while ago about being unprepared when the shooting starts. It's not fun.

sc68cal 5y ago

Absolutely. and this is a view shared by prominent US national security officials, that it is the United States that has caused this crisis. https://theanalysis.news/is-nato-for-security-or-aggression-wilkerson-engler/ https://theanalysis.news/is-nato-for-security-or-aggression-... Remember, it was the United States that broke the promise to not expand NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union. > Paul Jay >Crazy! Larry, how much of this is driven essentially, really by what domestic politics, that you get this saber-rattle and look all huff and puff on both sides, not just the American and west side, but the same thing goes for Putin, satisfying the nationalist fervor in Russia. And two, and maybe this is the most important thing, continuing this rationale of enormous arms purchases, and NATO helps keep all these countries within at least the Western arms market and mostly the American arms market, but they can’t be serious about actually fighting? They know what a shitstorm that leads to. > Larry Wilkerson >I hope you’re right. The history of warfare, especially major warfare in the last 200 years or so, doesn’t support that logic. Let me go back to something Yves said. I think one of the greatest travesties of US foreign policy in the last 25-30 years, and that’s a lot of things, including the invasion of Iraq, was the violation of Jim Bakker and Eduard Shevardnadze, and ultimately Reagan and Herbert Walker Bush, and Gorbachev’s promise that NATO would not go one step further East if Germany were allowed to reunify and remain in NATO.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> it was the United States that broke the promise to not expand NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union This promise is a myth [1]. At best, it was an informal statement by some guy in the U.S. government [2]. This has been blown out of proportion beyond any semblance to reality by Putin's propaganda. And if it had happened, it would have been an agreement with the Soviet Union. Which does not exist. Russia, in 1994, formally agreed to "respect...Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders" and "refrain from the threat or the use of force against...Ukraine," among other things. It has flagrantly broken these agreements. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-... [2] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057%2Fs41311-020-00224-w https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057%2Fs41311-020-00224...
- sc68cal 5y ago
  Citing a blog post by the Brookings Institution is very funny to me. They were one of many think tanks in Washington that built the intellectual groundwork to justify the expansion of NATO in the first place.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Citing a blog post by the Brookings Institution is very funny to me There is no shortage of sources on the ambiguity of this alleged promise [1][2]. More critically, there is a total absence of sources from Putin. Because he doesn't have any. Because when nations agree to things, they do so by issuing public declarations and/or signing treaties. [1] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/us/politics/russia-ukraine-james-baker.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/us/politics/russia-ukrain...
    - stfods 5y ago
      Absolutely, also that's Russia who doesn't respect even signed agreements. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Frie... .. signed in 1997, which fixed the principle of strategic partnership, the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, and respect for territorial integrity and mutual commitment not to use its territory to harm the security of each other.

alkonaut 5y ago

Remember that we were in a similar situation in 2014. And at that point it was about the EU, not NATO. Since then Russia has invaded annexed part of Ukraine. So no one observing this should be fooled to think that NATO is really relevant at all. The NATO talk from Russia now is chosen as an impossible demand because they know it’s impossible. It’s used to be able to point fingers and say “look, they are being unreasonable”. The audience is domestic. Whether NATO should be disbanded or not isn’t exactly a point on the agenda, nor is it fair to say that Ukraine (not a NATO member) has any responsibility in it. What should Ukraine do here? promise to never join NATO? At gunpoint? In what way does that respect the sovereignty of Ukraine? (The same way it’s borders are respected apparently).

nullifidian 5y ago

>I don't blame Russia's stance. As a Russian I say you are completely wrong. The current crisis is entirely manufactured by Putin and his authoritarian needs, which are contrary to the actual needs of the Russian people. The Baltic states joined NATO in 2004, and there isn't much difference in nuke flight time between a launch from Latvia or from Kharkiv, so the entire premise that Ukraine potentially joining NATO somehow threatens Russia is a ruse. What's really going on is that Putin's popularity is falling, and he needs a) distractions b) to fullfill the imperialistic need that has been propagandized out of every hole for the last 15+ years (I.e the need Putin himself created), and through that increase his popularity. For some time the conflict in the eastern Ukraine served that purpose, but people's eyes and ears got tired of that, so he has to up the stakes. Also an endless conflict with a great adversary is a good justification to further limit the scraps of freedom that remain, and justify the poor state of the economy, arrest people for being "foreign agents" etc etc -- something that the North Korean monarchy has perfected. >NATO should've been disbanded. If that happened the Baltic states would have already been occupied by Russia, to protect the Russian minority of course. Nobody forced east European countries to join NATO, it's in their interest, it preserves their sovereignty. America is imperialist too, but it's much more benign imperialism, focused on furthering globalism, democratic rule, and capitalists' profits. Russian imperialism only brings submission and authoritarianism -- the main narrative is sacrificing oneself for the imperialist rodina like the деды.

esarbe 5y ago
Is there any reliable (international) source for Russian internal affairs that is not tainted by state propaganda? Can you give a recommendation?
- nullifidian 5y ago
  Understanding a country without knowing the language/culture is an endeavor fraught with failure in my opinion. The only way is to learn the language, learn the cultural differences(preferably at least partially from "field experience", not that it's advisable as of late), and read the same things a curious Russian would.

vzaliva 5y ago

As Ukrainian I DO blame Russia's stance here. Ukraine is a free independent democratic country. It is free to join any alliances it wishes. This is not the reason to pre-emptively attack it. Also it is totally unprovoked. It is not like Ukraine is joining or welcomed to NATO anytime soon. The real reason is that Putin afraid of Ukraine: https://medium.com/@krokodil42/why-is-russia-afraid-of-ukraine-ca11171b7ac3 https://medium.com/@krokodil42/why-is-russia-afraid-of-ukrai...