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> 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. I'm not sure what you mean by limited window unless we are talking a

> 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited window in which you can do it. I'm not sure what you mean by limited window unless we are talking about professional athletes and some categories of manual laborers. > In addition many are not welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the highest paying trades This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled trades that are mostly women (e.g. cosmetologist, many medical roles). > do they pay more than the highest paying careers that require higher education? When we factor out jobs that require 8-12 years of education, in general, yes the trades aren't a bad deal. > 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no comparison can be made. I'm not turning this into an ad for the school my daughter went to. Cost was literally 1/2 of he first year salary over $40,000. It was capped at a maximum amount. She ended up paying about $6k, but it was contingent on her getting a job that payed better than $40k. 3. Some colleges perhaps, smart people can get full scholarships and even without that community college plus a cheap state school isn’t expensive. I have five kids. My first was straight As, great test scores, and we still ended up with $6-8k of expense per semester after the full ride scholarships paid for tuition at a small private college. Ok, here is the biggest community college in the US: Ivy Tech. $2,400 per semester for 12 hours, plus fees. It's not that expensive, but they also have less than 20% of students complete their degrees... > Link to your study? Did these people not go to college? It didn't matter what education level they attained, across the population the outcome was consistent. Having a job while young made a huge difference - almost as much as having a degree. 4. As you’ve already demonstrated college is hardly required let alone loans. Yep.

endisneigh 5y ago
> I'm not turning this into an ad for the school my daughter went to. Cost was literally 1/2 of he first year salary over $40,000. It was capped at a maximum amount. She ended up paying about $6k, but it was contingent on her getting a job that payed better than $40k. You already have. I want to see the graduation stats. > It didn't matter what education level they attained, across the population the outcome was consistent. Having a job while young made a huge difference - almost as much as having a degree. Where’s the link? Sorry but your point is way too centered on your anecdotes. Fact remains that college graduates make more money. https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/collegepayoff.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c...
- fuzzer37 5y ago
  Do you like to argue just to argue?
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure not, I'm pretty sure this person is going to argue until someone helps them justify their education expenses to themselves, or their teaching profession. They're fishing for a "you're right, college is the only thing that's worth it."
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Discovering an asset’s value is marked down is tragic for the owner, but the reality of a free market. A college degree is the new taxi medallion.
      - betwixthewires 5y ago
        It's beyond a taxi medallion. Before uber you had to have one. With college that's never been true. The thing that propped up the whole industry was high school counselors scaring kids into thinking they'll be burger flippers and ditch diggers for the rest of their lives without it, and that's never ever been true. The number of young people I've known who had existential dread at the thought of not going, beyond reason, peoples lives were destroyed by all this.
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        There are a lot of companies out there that mandate a degree for roles that don't require one. That creates artificial demand for an expensive credential, and of course a loan industry happy to issue debt for said required credentials (it's a racket). I put forth that if you exposed companies to the cost of that credentialing in some way (a tax of some sort on roles that mandate higher education), those roles would suddenly not require a degree, or on the job training would replace it.
tempest_ 5y ago
With regards to 1 A lot of the trades are hard on your body. By the time you are 45-50 your knees could be wrecked and that makes it hard to do service work like electric/HVAC. There are an argument that desk work isnt healthy either but that is a different discussion.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  If you're unable to work "in the field" as a trades(wo)man, you can always switch over to supervisory or inspection works or go the fully office job route (=planning, architectural offices).
  - tempest_ 5y ago
    You definitely can (and you should if you have the ability!) but there are by their nature fewer supervisory roles available and the skill sets, at least my experience, don't overlap that much.
- subsubzero 5y ago
  alot of engineers(and other tech employees) are forced out of the field due to ageism by 45-50 so its a wash.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    Not unless they're dogmatic about the language they're developing in, they aren't. I ran into people ALL THE EFFING TIME as a recruiter who refused to train in another language or environment because they were going to make less money if they moved on, even as the market for their current skillset dwindled to nothing. That's a completely different issue from having injured your back or shoulder or knee so often that you need surgical corrections just so you can remain functional at a resting state.
    - darepublic 5y ago
      My neural network was ground down to a nub for a variety of reasons. I could not leave the cozy confines of this react and typescript stack until winter had ended
kadomony 5y ago
Sounds like Lambda School.
watwut 5y ago
> This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled trades that are mostly women (e.g. cosmetologist, many medical roles). As a woman who likes trades like manual work as hobby - a lot of those do actually depends on physical strength. At hobby level it does not matter that much, but to achieve actual commercial productivity is simply much harder without all those muscles.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  When I did longshoreman for the summer there were but 2 women in the bull pen. One was a heavier older lady, imagine a burly dinner lady and you’ve probably got her. The other woman was maybe in her 30s and looked trim, but she had arms gnarled like branches and you could see a six pack through her tshirt. Mad respect for women who choose a profession like that, but it needs to be a lifestyle and it will consume you. As an untrained man with a normal (assumed) amount of testosterone, my body adapted over two shifts of swinging 70lb metal bars around.

endisneigh 5y ago

> I'm not turning this into an ad for the school my daughter went to. Cost was literally 1/2 of he first year salary over $40,000. It was capped at a maximum amount. She ended up paying about $6k, but it was contingent on her getting a job that payed better than $40k. You already have. I want to see the graduation stats. > It didn't matter what education level they attained, across the population the outcome was consistent. Having a job while young made a huge difference - almost as much as having a degree. Where’s the link? Sorry but your point is way too centered on your anecdotes. Fact remains that college graduates make more money. https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/collegepayoff.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c...

fuzzer37 5y ago
Do you like to argue just to argue?
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure not, I'm pretty sure this person is going to argue until someone helps them justify their education expenses to themselves, or their teaching profession. They're fishing for a "you're right, college is the only thing that's worth it."
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Discovering an asset’s value is marked down is tragic for the owner, but the reality of a free market. A college degree is the new taxi medallion.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      It's beyond a taxi medallion. Before uber you had to have one. With college that's never been true. The thing that propped up the whole industry was high school counselors scaring kids into thinking they'll be burger flippers and ditch diggers for the rest of their lives without it, and that's never ever been true. The number of young people I've known who had existential dread at the thought of not going, beyond reason, peoples lives were destroyed by all this.
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        There are a lot of companies out there that mandate a degree for roles that don't require one. That creates artificial demand for an expensive credential, and of course a loan industry happy to issue debt for said required credentials (it's a racket). I put forth that if you exposed companies to the cost of that credentialing in some way (a tax of some sort on roles that mandate higher education), those roles would suddenly not require a degree, or on the job training would replace it.

tempest_ 5y ago

With regards to 1 A lot of the trades are hard on your body. By the time you are 45-50 your knees could be wrecked and that makes it hard to do service work like electric/HVAC. There are an argument that desk work isnt healthy either but that is a different discussion.

mschuster91 5y ago
If you're unable to work "in the field" as a trades(wo)man, you can always switch over to supervisory or inspection works or go the fully office job route (=planning, architectural offices).
- tempest_ 5y ago
  You definitely can (and you should if you have the ability!) but there are by their nature fewer supervisory roles available and the skill sets, at least my experience, don't overlap that much.
subsubzero 5y ago
alot of engineers(and other tech employees) are forced out of the field due to ageism by 45-50 so its a wash.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  Not unless they're dogmatic about the language they're developing in, they aren't. I ran into people ALL THE EFFING TIME as a recruiter who refused to train in another language or environment because they were going to make less money if they moved on, even as the market for their current skillset dwindled to nothing. That's a completely different issue from having injured your back or shoulder or knee so often that you need surgical corrections just so you can remain functional at a resting state.
  - darepublic 5y ago
    My neural network was ground down to a nub for a variety of reasons. I could not leave the cozy confines of this react and typescript stack until winter had ended

kadomony 5y ago

Sounds like Lambda School.

watwut 5y ago

> This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled trades that are mostly women (e.g. cosmetologist, many medical roles). As a woman who likes trades like manual work as hobby - a lot of those do actually depends on physical strength. At hobby level it does not matter that much, but to achieve actual commercial productivity is simply much harder without all those muscles.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
When I did longshoreman for the summer there were but 2 women in the bull pen. One was a heavier older lady, imagine a burly dinner lady and you’ve probably got her. The other woman was maybe in her 30s and looked trim, but she had arms gnarled like branches and you could see a six pack through her tshirt. Mad respect for women who choose a profession like that, but it needs to be a lifestyle and it will consume you. As an untrained man with a normal (assumed) amount of testosterone, my body adapted over two shifts of swinging 70lb metal bars around.