4 ms·

> This isn't something that I have to personally worry about if I'm by myself, but it's something that so many women do have to worry about all the time. I can'

by Mezzie 5y ago

> This isn't something that I have to personally worry about if I'm by myself, but it's something that so many women do have to worry about all the time. I can't even imagine the burden that women must carry. Not just women, but children. I was aware that I could be sexually assaulted/harrassed and what to do about it by the time I was 5, and I started getting uncomfortable comments in person around age 11. I'm also exceptionally lucky and have never actually been assaulted. Not particularly relevant to most people here, but some of you will have daughters, so. Edit: Also relevant potentially to your colleagues and co-workers, since one reason I stopped participating in tech spaces while I was a teenager (I still coded, just only alone or anonymously) was because I felt unsafe being a 13-14 year old girl who was the only female in a room/space with dozens of men, some of whom were 2-3 times my age. I don't think I can overstate the danger alarm bells, especially given how rampant homophobia was back then and I was also gay.

brnaftr360 5y ago
There's a considerable asymmetry here between men and women. I'm really curious about sussing it out and understanding how it develops. At an early age, about 5 or so I was exposed to sex, with peers, male/female. Later I was raped through coercion by two older children at 10-ish, male/female. Additionally none of this was ever reported until adulthood. As a male I've repeatedly been put in positions that I could describe as uncomfortable (though I don't, usually), pressured intimacy, catcalling, sexually forward girls/men... Having gotten feedback from female peers in adulthood, I've gotten to wondering about the way that society tends to articulate sex and rape to women. The summary of framing that I've gotten from one of my intimates, is that at an early age women are given the impression that sex is their single lever in a relationship or socially. Sex is the only way which a woman can gain approval. Which, to me, seems like it would drastically amplify the experience of rape. There's also the puritanical considerations of virginity and slut shaming, etc... But I don't know that it's really a running theme in individual women. And then there's the proactive modality. At the time of my rapes, I was not informed on rape or consent, and so the context wasn't that of violence, but simply commonplace arm twisting, and because it was as such I only ever saw that it could be framed as a traumatic episode much later. On the obverse, having been informed of such things as detestable, as violent, as traumatic and serious and driven to reporting it, I could imagine that it would escalate my feelings, and I suspect so would dealing with it externally with strangers and institutions and perhaps having some artificial narrative constructed by interlopers either directly or indirectly. I mean, consider having to talk to parents, police, social workers and so on it's implies a considerable escalation from the day-to-day. Especially as a child. Of course this seldom happens. I wonder if it's a sort of funeral psychology where you feel compelled to cry and mourn because that's what's implied, even if you don't feel the need. But as a male having gone through these situations, without the framework being described, but rather having the privilege to describe it myself, it simply never evolved into a trauma. And I think this might be borne out by the statistics wherein boys/men simply do not report rape, just beyond the fact that it may happen less frequently. But having direct perspective on it, I wonder if I'm an oddball, or if trauma resulting from female rape is sort of amplified by the way women are socialized and informed.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Your experiences are your own, of course. The rest is theory you created, not fact or evidence. Other males who have been sexually abused certainly have trauma. Look at the victims of the Catholic Church and other well-known situations. I'm sure you can find plenty of research describing it. EDIT: Also, many comments testify to it in this discussion.
  - brnaftr360 5y ago
    >The rest is theory... It's a hypothetical, I'm not intent on stating anything as fact. >Look at the victims of the Catholic Church and other well-known situations. Part of what I conjectured was that the system itself is potentially traumatic. And that (naive) interventions might hypothetically be damaging. Again, one is potentially braving a number of institutions, not just family, but police, case workers, mental health professionals. Not to mention in the case of familial abuse considerable transitions, up to foster care, itself from what I've heard is frequented by pederasts. Perhaps a window for a form of gaslighting, wherein the victim is induced to believe they're traumatized. That is to say, that any well-known case, perhaps especially well-known cases would be outside the scope.
- drooogs 5y ago
  this is the sort of conversation that must be conducted very delicately, but it is something I have also wondered, having had similar experiences myself. quite a few times I have experienced unwanted sexual advances/touching/groping in public spaces from women I considered friends, in front of our other friends. I don't consider those events traumatic, but certainly uncomfortable at the time. I never knew what to do, so I would just freeze and pretend it wasn't happening. once I actually went through with it and had sex with the person because I felt I had led her on by allowing her initial advances (dumb of me in hindsight). perhaps one important difference is that I was physically stronger than every one of those people. I could have resisted, but didn't due to (possibly imagined) social pressure. like I said, I don't think there is any lasting trauma over these events; I think of them more as misunderstandings than assaults. but at the same time, all of these women were otherwise quite vocal about feminism, consent, etc. I wonder what they would have called it if I'd done the same things to them.
astura 5y ago
>I started getting uncomfortable comments in person around age 11. Agreed with this, I (woman) started getting regularly cat-called on the street every time I left my house around 12-13. I was a young looking child to boot.
- ericbarrett 5y ago
  One of my high school friends told me her first creeper catcall was when she was 10. A guy in a pickup rolled alongside her for two blocks saying disgusting things and trying to convince her to get in the cab.
int0x2e 5y ago
This is well off the main thread here so please feel free to ignore my request, but as a loving parent of a 3 year-old girl, I worry about when/how do we explain to her what is and isn't okay for adults (and other kids) to do around her, and how she can protect herself, seek help or otherwise handle a situation. Since you mentioned you were aware of the danger when you were as young as 5 - when and how would you suggest one could help let their daughter know about these risks without inducing some much fear and anxiety that will end up making her avoid too many positive experiences?
- igneo676 5y ago
  With my kids, my wife and I teach the idea of consent from a really young age and reinforce it strongly amongst family members. No means no as long as it's their body or their possessions And we back that up, forcefully. If my kid doesn't want a hug, they will not be getting a hug. If they don't want to share, they won't. My kid's autonomy is worth way more than those relationships. Period. And it's worth it. Your kids will naturally share when they feel comfortable doing so. They'll share affection when they feel comfortable. And longer term this extends into topics they're not mature enough to tackle at 3
- susiecambria 5y ago
  A friend who is ED of Safe Shores (DC Children's Advocacy Center) says that Good Touch, Bad Touch has fallen out of favor. Safe Shores uses Stewards of Children, developed by Darkness to Light, and staff members are certified trainers. Perhaps reach out to Darkness to Light or your local (regional) children's advocacy center. Many states have more than one. Not sure about the status internationally, but in the US, I know this is the case. In my 20+ years doing public policy advocacy on a number of issues related to children, I came across too many organizations that had the potential to harm children and families, through using poor prevention models, infidelity to the model, not understanding issues, thinking that doing something was enough. While I'm generally a fan of doing something is better than doing nothing, that is absolutely not the case with this topic. Good luck!
- Mezzie 5y ago
  For a 3 year old, the important things are to make sure she knows she can come to you any time she feels uncomfortable. Also, there's no need to go into detail about it being a sex thing; you should approach it with the same level of detail you do the 'don't trust strangers' conversation. I knew that nobody should touch my private parts and mouth kissing was for grown-ups, like coffee, and if anybody tried, I should go find other adults + tell them. I couldn't have told you anything about why somebody would do that; I just knew there were bad grown ups, and that's about the level you're working with at 3 years old. There are bad grown ups (like whatever bad person in TV shows she watches), and if you find one, go get a good grown up right away. Emphasize most people are good and it's very rare, like how everybody in the family practices for a fire, and that we all watch out for one another. That sort of thing. (I don't know your parenting philosophy.) I'm assuming you have a neurotypical, potty-trained 3 year old; it's more complex when things like toilet-help are involved, I know.

by Mezzie 5y ago

brnaftr360 5y ago

There's a considerable asymmetry here between men and women. I'm really curious about sussing it out and understanding how it develops. At an early age, about 5 or so I was exposed to sex, with peers, male/female. Later I was raped through coercion by two older children at 10-ish, male/female. Additionally none of this was ever reported until adulthood. As a male I've repeatedly been put in positions that I could describe as uncomfortable (though I don't, usually), pressured intimacy, catcalling, sexually forward girls/men... Having gotten feedback from female peers in adulthood, I've gotten to wondering about the way that society tends to articulate sex and rape to women. The summary of framing that I've gotten from one of my intimates, is that at an early age women are given the impression that sex is their single lever in a relationship or socially. Sex is the only way which a woman can gain approval. Which, to me, seems like it would drastically amplify the experience of rape. There's also the puritanical considerations of virginity and slut shaming, etc... But I don't know that it's really a running theme in individual women. And then there's the proactive modality. At the time of my rapes, I was not informed on rape or consent, and so the context wasn't that of violence, but simply commonplace arm twisting, and because it was as such I only ever saw that it could be framed as a traumatic episode much later. On the obverse, having been informed of such things as detestable, as violent, as traumatic and serious and driven to reporting it, I could imagine that it would escalate my feelings, and I suspect so would dealing with it externally with strangers and institutions and perhaps having some artificial narrative constructed by interlopers either directly or indirectly. I mean, consider having to talk to parents, police, social workers and so on it's implies a considerable escalation from the day-to-day. Especially as a child. Of course this seldom happens. I wonder if it's a sort of funeral psychology where you feel compelled to cry and mourn because that's what's implied, even if you don't feel the need. But as a male having gone through these situations, without the framework being described, but rather having the privilege to describe it myself, it simply never evolved into a trauma. And I think this might be borne out by the statistics wherein boys/men simply do not report rape, just beyond the fact that it may happen less frequently. But having direct perspective on it, I wonder if I'm an oddball, or if trauma resulting from female rape is sort of amplified by the way women are socialized and informed.

wolverine876 5y ago
Your experiences are your own, of course. The rest is theory you created, not fact or evidence. Other males who have been sexually abused certainly have trauma. Look at the victims of the Catholic Church and other well-known situations. I'm sure you can find plenty of research describing it. EDIT: Also, many comments testify to it in this discussion.
- brnaftr360 5y ago
  >The rest is theory... It's a hypothetical, I'm not intent on stating anything as fact. >Look at the victims of the Catholic Church and other well-known situations. Part of what I conjectured was that the system itself is potentially traumatic. And that (naive) interventions might hypothetically be damaging. Again, one is potentially braving a number of institutions, not just family, but police, case workers, mental health professionals. Not to mention in the case of familial abuse considerable transitions, up to foster care, itself from what I've heard is frequented by pederasts. Perhaps a window for a form of gaslighting, wherein the victim is induced to believe they're traumatized. That is to say, that any well-known case, perhaps especially well-known cases would be outside the scope.
drooogs 5y ago
this is the sort of conversation that must be conducted very delicately, but it is something I have also wondered, having had similar experiences myself. quite a few times I have experienced unwanted sexual advances/touching/groping in public spaces from women I considered friends, in front of our other friends. I don't consider those events traumatic, but certainly uncomfortable at the time. I never knew what to do, so I would just freeze and pretend it wasn't happening. once I actually went through with it and had sex with the person because I felt I had led her on by allowing her initial advances (dumb of me in hindsight). perhaps one important difference is that I was physically stronger than every one of those people. I could have resisted, but didn't due to (possibly imagined) social pressure. like I said, I don't think there is any lasting trauma over these events; I think of them more as misunderstandings than assaults. but at the same time, all of these women were otherwise quite vocal about feminism, consent, etc. I wonder what they would have called it if I'd done the same things to them.

astura 5y ago

>I started getting uncomfortable comments in person around age 11. Agreed with this, I (woman) started getting regularly cat-called on the street every time I left my house around 12-13. I was a young looking child to boot.

ericbarrett 5y ago
One of my high school friends told me her first creeper catcall was when she was 10. A guy in a pickup rolled alongside her for two blocks saying disgusting things and trying to convince her to get in the cab.

int0x2e 5y ago

This is well off the main thread here so please feel free to ignore my request, but as a loving parent of a 3 year-old girl, I worry about when/how do we explain to her what is and isn't okay for adults (and other kids) to do around her, and how she can protect herself, seek help or otherwise handle a situation. Since you mentioned you were aware of the danger when you were as young as 5 - when and how would you suggest one could help let their daughter know about these risks without inducing some much fear and anxiety that will end up making her avoid too many positive experiences?

igneo676 5y ago
With my kids, my wife and I teach the idea of consent from a really young age and reinforce it strongly amongst family members. No means no as long as it's their body or their possessions And we back that up, forcefully. If my kid doesn't want a hug, they will not be getting a hug. If they don't want to share, they won't. My kid's autonomy is worth way more than those relationships. Period. And it's worth it. Your kids will naturally share when they feel comfortable doing so. They'll share affection when they feel comfortable. And longer term this extends into topics they're not mature enough to tackle at 3
susiecambria 5y ago
A friend who is ED of Safe Shores (DC Children's Advocacy Center) says that Good Touch, Bad Touch has fallen out of favor. Safe Shores uses Stewards of Children, developed by Darkness to Light, and staff members are certified trainers. Perhaps reach out to Darkness to Light or your local (regional) children's advocacy center. Many states have more than one. Not sure about the status internationally, but in the US, I know this is the case. In my 20+ years doing public policy advocacy on a number of issues related to children, I came across too many organizations that had the potential to harm children and families, through using poor prevention models, infidelity to the model, not understanding issues, thinking that doing something was enough. While I'm generally a fan of doing something is better than doing nothing, that is absolutely not the case with this topic. Good luck!
Mezzie 5y ago
For a 3 year old, the important things are to make sure she knows she can come to you any time she feels uncomfortable. Also, there's no need to go into detail about it being a sex thing; you should approach it with the same level of detail you do the 'don't trust strangers' conversation. I knew that nobody should touch my private parts and mouth kissing was for grown-ups, like coffee, and if anybody tried, I should go find other adults + tell them. I couldn't have told you anything about why somebody would do that; I just knew there were bad grown ups, and that's about the level you're working with at 3 years old. There are bad grown ups (like whatever bad person in TV shows she watches), and if you find one, go get a good grown up right away. Emphasize most people are good and it's very rare, like how everybody in the family practices for a fire, and that we all watch out for one another. That sort of thing. (I don't know your parenting philosophy.) I'm assuming you have a neurotypical, potty-trained 3 year old; it's more complex when things like toilet-help are involved, I know.