4 ms·

> So roughly 5% (<5 of 84) of the control group were discovered to have themselves been abused and needed to be dropped from the study. I hope this is accident

by bArray 5y ago

> So roughly 5% (<5 of 84) of the control group were discovered to have themselves been abused and needed to be dropped from the study. I hope this is accidental bias, or a statistical anomaly. It could be for example that this is overrepresented from the pooled community. I think it would also be important to somehow scale/categorize the level of abuse (physical vs non-physical, penetrative vs non-penetrative, etc). If it really is 5% (1 in 20 girls) then this would outrank something like COVID in terms of importance. > The comparison sample (n = 82) was recruited via advertisements in community newspapers and posters in welfare, daycare, and community facilities in the same neighborhoods in which the abused participants lived. Comparison families contacted study personnel and were screened for eligibility, which included having no prior contact with protective service agencies and being demographically similar to a same-aged abused participant. At the time of study entry, comparison families were not informed that the study involved sexually abused females; rather, they were told that the study was of “female growth and development.” I wonder whether this still ended up being a self-selecting group. I can imagine a scenario where a young girl has an awful experience growing up, wants to see change in the upbringing of females and becomes somewhat engaged in related activities. > He actually said: You better build some more prisons before you start testing babies for this. I don't think a lack of facilities to deal with a problem is a good reason for not addressing it. At the very least we need to understand the scale of the problem, even if the problem remains unaddressed for the time being.

sandworm101 5y ago
We don't have hard numbers on kids, but we have some very solid numbers from young adults. From 2020 Statistics Canada study of university students: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2020001/article/00005-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2020001/article... >> One in ten (11%) women students experienced a sexual assault in a postsecondary setting during the previous year. About one in five (19%) women who were sexually assaulted said that the assault took the form of a sexual activity to which they did not consent after they had agreed to another form of sexual activity—for example, agreeing to have protected sex and then learning it had been unprotected sex. >> Less than one in ten women (8%) and men (6%) who experienced sexual assault, and less than one in ten women (9%) and men (4%) who had experienced unwanted sexualized behaviours spoke about what happened Given that last stat, we should take whatever number we have for reported assaults' and multiply it by at least ten to cover all the unreported events.
- drevil-v2 5y ago
  >> One in ten (11%) women students experienced a sexual assault in a postsecondary setting during the previous year. About one in five (19%) women who were sexually assaulted said that the assault took the form of a sexual activity to which they did not consent after they had agreed to another form of sexual activity—for example, agreeing to have protected sex and then learning it had been unprotected sex. Is there a baseline for what constitutes sexual assault? Or is it entirely subjective?
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    Generally sexual encounters in which there is not informed consent between participants is considered assault. Someone who consents to sex with contraception when the sex doesn’t have contraception isn’t an informed consenting party.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    As this is from Statistics Canada, they would be using the government definitions, which include rape on the sexual assault spectrum. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rr14_01/p10.html https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rr14_01/p10...
    - drevil-v2 5y ago
      Obviously rape would be at one end of the spectrum but what's the distribution of incidents over the entire spectrum? They say in that report you linked in the OP that they include "behaviours such as unwelcome sexual comments, actions or advances" which are entirely subjective.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  It's important to realize the 11% statistic is a statistic that includes non-consensual ass-grabbing in the same bucket with forcible rape, which isn't informative for most purposes and I can only imagine wasn't done in good faith. Here is from that report, things that constitute "sexual assault": "Sexual attack: Forcing or attempted forcing into any unwanted sexual activity, by threatening, holding down, or hurting in some way; Unwanted sexual touching: Touching against a person’s will in any sexual way, including unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing, or fondling; Sexual activity where unable to consent: Subjecting to a sexual activity to which a person was not able to consent, including being intoxicated, drugged, manipulated, or forced in ways other than physically; Sexual activity to which a person did not consent, after they consented to another form of sexual activity (for example, agreeing to protected sex and then learning it had been unprotected sex)." Those things constitute 11% sexual assault number you cite. It's important to realize that "sexual assault" to most people means rape and things that are pretty close to rape, so that's how they'll interpret the 11% number, but the criteria include "Touching against a person’s will in any sexual way, including unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing, or fondling;" and I don't see a breakdown by type. I would imagine that the vast majority of positive reports were in the non-consensual touching bucket. So we're looking at a statistic that includes non-consensual ass-grabbing in the same bucket with forcible rape. I guess I've been sexually assaulted numerous times. Don't take this to trivialize bad experiences people have had, take it as an attack on shoddy methods that are clearly designed to stoke fires of indignation rather than shed light on a prickly topic. >Given that last stat... I don't think you're interpreting this correctly.
v64 5y ago
> If it really is 5% (1 in 20 girls) then this would outrank something like COVID in terms of importance. If you want more information on this, Besser van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score, considered to be one of the definitive books on the study of psychological trauma, discusses this in Chapter 10, "Developmental Trauma: The Hidden Epidemic". While I don't have the book in front of me to quote explicit statistics, the chapter references a number of research studies backing up the conclusion of the doctor in sandworm101's comment.
- pfortuny 5y ago
  Wanted to say the same thing.
SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
Very seriously: no, that’s not an aberration. Sexual abuse is at a massive scale and the abuse is highly normalized. America still has child brides legalized such that there are services to look up states to travel to in order to perform a child marriage by age, documentation requirements, fees, etc.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  What exactly are you talking about? This sounds an awful lot like what some Roma people practice here in the bad parts of Europe
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    I mean quite seriously that putting children in romantic, intimate relationships is legal in America. Only 6 states have banned marrying children. I’m emphasizing this because I want to point out the degree in which sexual violence is normalized, to the point where 5 percent of women in a study who believed they weren’t sexually abused might realize they have been and be dropped out of the study is totally within the bounds of reality.
    - beebeepka 5y ago
      Excuse me for asking but you keep saying children without mentioning particular age. In the case of Roma bride markets, I've been quoted age 12 and beyond. Quite young at the lower end, no doubt, but at the risk of drawing people's wrath, 16 and above, while bad, isn't that horrible... until we get back to our senses and realize the whole thing sucks because they are forced or at least strongly encouraged to do it.
      - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
        There are states where there is no minimum limit for child marriage.
        5y ago
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
Your intuition is correct, 5% isn't correct. From another comment I made in this thread: "In a few cases (N < 5) families were dropped from the comparison group because some history of sexual abuse was ascertained." I think you are misinterpreting. First, they say: "...information was obtained about any possible unwanted sexual experiences of the comparison females or other family members" So interpreting it as 5 of 84 women is incorrect. It's min 5 people of 84 families. Given a mean family size of perhaps 3.5 (if by "family" they mean "nuclear family", though I bet they include anyone you know about really--Uncle Bob would count, and one report per family with reports) it's more like 5 out of 294 people, or 1.7%. And I don't think they share their exclusion criteria, which isn't a good sign. And there's a significant selection bias given how they recruited (in a newspaper, for people who have the free time and/or low wealth enough to want to do a study, and in particular on female growth and development).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Foobar8568 5y ago
100% of women who have taken the Parisian subway have been sexually harassed at least once a year. 72% while walking in Lausanne. Sexual harassment is rampant but we teach kids to not snitch or bring problems to their parents/teachers. Same in ocmpanies, so as far as I am concerned, 5% seems to be fairly low.

by bArray 5y ago

sandworm101 5y ago

We don't have hard numbers on kids, but we have some very solid numbers from young adults. From 2020 Statistics Canada study of university students: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2020001/article/00005-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2020001/article... >> One in ten (11%) women students experienced a sexual assault in a postsecondary setting during the previous year. About one in five (19%) women who were sexually assaulted said that the assault took the form of a sexual activity to which they did not consent after they had agreed to another form of sexual activity—for example, agreeing to have protected sex and then learning it had been unprotected sex. >> Less than one in ten women (8%) and men (6%) who experienced sexual assault, and less than one in ten women (9%) and men (4%) who had experienced unwanted sexualized behaviours spoke about what happened Given that last stat, we should take whatever number we have for reported assaults' and multiply it by at least ten to cover all the unreported events.

drevil-v2 5y ago
>> One in ten (11%) women students experienced a sexual assault in a postsecondary setting during the previous year. About one in five (19%) women who were sexually assaulted said that the assault took the form of a sexual activity to which they did not consent after they had agreed to another form of sexual activity—for example, agreeing to have protected sex and then learning it had been unprotected sex. Is there a baseline for what constitutes sexual assault? Or is it entirely subjective?
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  Generally sexual encounters in which there is not informed consent between participants is considered assault. Someone who consents to sex with contraception when the sex doesn’t have contraception isn’t an informed consenting party.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  As this is from Statistics Canada, they would be using the government definitions, which include rape on the sexual assault spectrum. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rr14_01/p10.html https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/victim/rr14_01/p10...
  - drevil-v2 5y ago
    Obviously rape would be at one end of the spectrum but what's the distribution of incidents over the entire spectrum? They say in that report you linked in the OP that they include "behaviours such as unwelcome sexual comments, actions or advances" which are entirely subjective.
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
It's important to realize the 11% statistic is a statistic that includes non-consensual ass-grabbing in the same bucket with forcible rape, which isn't informative for most purposes and I can only imagine wasn't done in good faith. Here is from that report, things that constitute "sexual assault": "Sexual attack: Forcing or attempted forcing into any unwanted sexual activity, by threatening, holding down, or hurting in some way; Unwanted sexual touching: Touching against a person’s will in any sexual way, including unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing, or fondling; Sexual activity where unable to consent: Subjecting to a sexual activity to which a person was not able to consent, including being intoxicated, drugged, manipulated, or forced in ways other than physically; Sexual activity to which a person did not consent, after they consented to another form of sexual activity (for example, agreeing to protected sex and then learning it had been unprotected sex)." Those things constitute 11% sexual assault number you cite. It's important to realize that "sexual assault" to most people means rape and things that are pretty close to rape, so that's how they'll interpret the 11% number, but the criteria include "Touching against a person’s will in any sexual way, including unwanted touching or grabbing, kissing, or fondling;" and I don't see a breakdown by type. I would imagine that the vast majority of positive reports were in the non-consensual touching bucket. So we're looking at a statistic that includes non-consensual ass-grabbing in the same bucket with forcible rape. I guess I've been sexually assaulted numerous times. Don't take this to trivialize bad experiences people have had, take it as an attack on shoddy methods that are clearly designed to stoke fires of indignation rather than shed light on a prickly topic. >Given that last stat... I don't think you're interpreting this correctly.

v64 5y ago

> If it really is 5% (1 in 20 girls) then this would outrank something like COVID in terms of importance. If you want more information on this, Besser van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score, considered to be one of the definitive books on the study of psychological trauma, discusses this in Chapter 10, "Developmental Trauma: The Hidden Epidemic". While I don't have the book in front of me to quote explicit statistics, the chapter references a number of research studies backing up the conclusion of the doctor in sandworm101's comment.

pfortuny 5y ago
Wanted to say the same thing.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago

Very seriously: no, that’s not an aberration. Sexual abuse is at a massive scale and the abuse is highly normalized. America still has child brides legalized such that there are services to look up states to travel to in order to perform a child marriage by age, documentation requirements, fees, etc.

beebeepka 5y ago
What exactly are you talking about? This sounds an awful lot like what some Roma people practice here in the bad parts of Europe
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  I mean quite seriously that putting children in romantic, intimate relationships is legal in America. Only 6 states have banned marrying children. I’m emphasizing this because I want to point out the degree in which sexual violence is normalized, to the point where 5 percent of women in a study who believed they weren’t sexually abused might realize they have been and be dropped out of the study is totally within the bounds of reality.
  - beebeepka 5y ago
    Excuse me for asking but you keep saying children without mentioning particular age. In the case of Roma bride markets, I've been quoted age 12 and beyond. Quite young at the lower end, no doubt, but at the risk of drawing people's wrath, 16 and above, while bad, isn't that horrible... until we get back to our senses and realize the whole thing sucks because they are forced or at least strongly encouraged to do it.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      There are states where there is no minimum limit for child marriage.
      - 5y ago

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago

Your intuition is correct, 5% isn't correct. From another comment I made in this thread: "In a few cases (N < 5) families were dropped from the comparison group because some history of sexual abuse was ascertained." I think you are misinterpreting. First, they say: "...information was obtained about any possible unwanted sexual experiences of the comparison females or other family members" So interpreting it as 5 of 84 women is incorrect. It's min 5 people of 84 families. Given a mean family size of perhaps 3.5 (if by "family" they mean "nuclear family", though I bet they include anyone you know about really--Uncle Bob would count, and one report per family with reports) it's more like 5 out of 294 people, or 1.7%. And I don't think they share their exclusion criteria, which isn't a good sign. And there's a significant selection bias given how they recruited (in a newspaper, for people who have the free time and/or low wealth enough to want to do a study, and in particular on female growth and development).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Foobar8568 5y ago

100% of women who have taken the Parisian subway have been sexually harassed at least once a year. 72% while walking in Lausanne. Sexual harassment is rampant but we teach kids to not snitch or bring problems to their parents/teachers. Same in ocmpanies, so as far as I am concerned, 5% seems to be fairly low.