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Not only that, but depending on which state you are in in Germany (and Austria) you get routed at around 4th grade. If the teachers decide that you are academic

Not only that, but depending on which state you are in in Germany (and Austria) you get routed at around 4th grade. If the teachers decide that you are academically fit for it then you go on to the Gymnasium, which prepares you for college, often with some focus for your class (e.g.: mathematics, arts, or science). If those same teachers decide that you are not up to college, but are still smart enough for something skilled, then you go on to Realschule, which still has some focus on academics, but is steering you to something like being a secretary, or a generic office worker. And finally there is the Hauptschule track. Here you are being groomed for something more involved with labor. The academics are not nearly so rigorous, and there is almost always the expectation that you will be steered into an apprenticeship for the final 4 years of what we (in the U.S.) would have as High School. Some of these apprenticeships can be quite prestigious (e.g.: the BMW technician school in Munich), but many of them are pretty pedestrian (e.g.: learning to run agricultural equipment). For most people this routing when they are 10 (or so) decides what routes are open to them later in life. There are exceptions to this (my host sister went to Realschule, and later took the Abiture, the the test that got her into college), but they are pretty rare. I have always been a bit leery of choices made so early in life, but it works pretty well in Germany.

ffwszgf 5y ago
This would never be allowed in America. the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy and the idea that you can divide kids by their skills/grades will get you in trouble, especially if you do it that early. If for whatever reason the demographics at each track are not the same as those of the nation it will get called racist and shut down quick.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy In Germany, our system is far more inclusive at all levels which means we don't have that much of a problem with early stage ethnic discrimination. Not to say we don't have any problems at all (far from it, in fact!) but it's nowhere near as bad as in the US, and additionally for once we Germans don't have historical baggage that's keeping us down.
- scollet 5y ago
  You can't make something up and apply it to an entire continent.
muffinman26 5y ago
It actually doesn't work that great in Germany. The college dropout rate is about 28% (https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-out_from_German_Higher_Education_Institutions https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-...). The Hauptschule and Realschule routes seem much better designed than the US, but in terms of predicting who is suitable for college Germany isn't doing a very good job.
- notch656a 5y ago
  28% is much lower than the ~37% failure rate to graduate in 6 years in US. In somewhere like Iran you may see very high graduation rates in part because you may need to be selected as best student (a former employer I interviewed with, the owner got into college because he was best math student in a class of something like 1000 children.) Dropout rate because of failure to adapt, of course, would be a good thing. Those who aren't fit for a career in engineering for instance were rapidly ejected into a different program from my public college I went to (like 25+% ejected first year, memory says it was more like 50%), which meant very few people wasted lots of money on a dead career path.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Farzanegan_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Farzanegan_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allameh_Helli_High_Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allameh_Helli_High_Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Organization_for_Development_of_Exceptional_Talents#Famous_NODET_High_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Organization_for_Deve...
  - muffinman26 5y ago
    The point of the split for Gymnasium is supposed to be to only admit those students who would successfully adapt, though. Attending college also requires passing the Abitur, which shows skill in the areas you are planning to study. A failure to understand engineering topics should show up in the topics chosen for the Abitur. (Similar to the choice of A level topics in the UK.) Somewhat relatedly, college in Germany is more focused on the theoretical than it is in the US. A lot of engineering college programs in the US would be closer to a German technical school than a German college.
oblio 5y ago
I heard that this year, at least in some regions, they're doing the Gymnasium assignments randomly (!) I know someone where their child qualified for Gymnasium but apparently it's not guaranteed this year due to lack of spots so there's going to be a lottery (!). This is in North Rhine-Westphalia.
suyjuris 5y ago
Distributing children of age 10 into groups based on their predicted future academic achievement works about as well as you would expect (i.e. not very well), but the redeeming feature of the system is that it is reasonably fluid and you can change tracks. You could, for example, do Abitur after completing Realschule and then move on to university. It is also possible to change directly from Realschule to Gymnasium at basically any point, if you meet certain standards. (You can also take university classes while in Gymnasium without too much trouble.) There is also the Gesamtschule, which combines the three tracks (Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium) into a single school.

ffwszgf 5y ago

This would never be allowed in America. the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy and the idea that you can divide kids by their skills/grades will get you in trouble, especially if you do it that early. If for whatever reason the demographics at each track are not the same as those of the nation it will get called racist and shut down quick.

mschuster91 5y ago
> the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy In Germany, our system is far more inclusive at all levels which means we don't have that much of a problem with early stage ethnic discrimination. Not to say we don't have any problems at all (far from it, in fact!) but it's nowhere near as bad as in the US, and additionally for once we Germans don't have historical baggage that's keeping us down.
scollet 5y ago
You can't make something up and apply it to an entire continent.

muffinman26 5y ago

It actually doesn't work that great in Germany. The college dropout rate is about 28% (https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-out_from_German_Higher_Education_Institutions https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-...). The Hauptschule and Realschule routes seem much better designed than the US, but in terms of predicting who is suitable for college Germany isn't doing a very good job.

notch656a 5y ago
28% is much lower than the ~37% failure rate to graduate in 6 years in US. In somewhere like Iran you may see very high graduation rates in part because you may need to be selected as best student (a former employer I interviewed with, the owner got into college because he was best math student in a class of something like 1000 children.) Dropout rate because of failure to adapt, of course, would be a good thing. Those who aren't fit for a career in engineering for instance were rapidly ejected into a different program from my public college I went to (like 25+% ejected first year, memory says it was more like 50%), which meant very few people wasted lots of money on a dead career path.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Farzanegan_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Farzanegan_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allameh_Helli_High_Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allameh_Helli_High_Schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Organization_for_Development_of_Exceptional_Talents#Famous_NODET_High_schools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Organization_for_Deve...
- muffinman26 5y ago
  The point of the split for Gymnasium is supposed to be to only admit those students who would successfully adapt, though. Attending college also requires passing the Abitur, which shows skill in the areas you are planning to study. A failure to understand engineering topics should show up in the topics chosen for the Abitur. (Similar to the choice of A level topics in the UK.) Somewhat relatedly, college in Germany is more focused on the theoretical than it is in the US. A lot of engineering college programs in the US would be closer to a German technical school than a German college.

oblio 5y ago

I heard that this year, at least in some regions, they're doing the Gymnasium assignments randomly (!) I know someone where their child qualified for Gymnasium but apparently it's not guaranteed this year due to lack of spots so there's going to be a lottery (!). This is in North Rhine-Westphalia.

suyjuris 5y ago

Distributing children of age 10 into groups based on their predicted future academic achievement works about as well as you would expect (i.e. not very well), but the redeeming feature of the system is that it is reasonably fluid and you can change tracks. You could, for example, do Abitur after completing Realschule and then move on to university. It is also possible to change directly from Realschule to Gymnasium at basically any point, if you meet certain standards. (You can also take university classes while in Gymnasium without too much trouble.) There is also the Gesamtschule, which combines the three tracks (Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium) into a single school.