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That was the answer. People vocally cynical about the vaccines have always been using a strawman argument, in case you need a refresher a strawman argument requ

That was the answer. People vocally cynical about the vaccines have always been using a strawman argument, in case you need a refresher a strawman argument requires two things: 1) creating a standard that was never used by the proponents 2) criticizing the made up standard to discredit the proponents on a medical level, it is clear this wasn't to stop the spread, it was to slow the spread as vaccinated infected have smaller viral load for shorter time period compared to unvaccinated infected, as well as reduce severity and deaths of those that contained a viral load. On who we call the "proponents" for this topic, I will concede that I've heard many local influencers, radio hosts and others reduce this to "stop the spread" in reference to any viral mitigation measure, such as masks, distancing, quarantine, and vaccination all part of an amorphous overarching program. But its clear that the people that latch on to "stop the spread" as a reference to the vaccine as a technical term advancement would never have looked at the technical supporting data due to either trust issues with the institution or plain ignorance of how it works. The researchers and their research has always been clear about what performance to expect from the vaccines (except duration of effectiveness which is unknown for both the vaccines and natural immunity, compounded by the variants)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
incrudible 5y ago
Fauci himself did claim the vaccinated are "dead ends" to the virus[1]. He dangled the carrot of "herd immunity through vaccination" around but then moved the threshold further and further, even admitting to being dishonest in the process[2]. Of course, we now all know herd immunity with vaccines is impossible and that they do next to nothing to inhibit spread. Perhaps some experts accurately predicted this, but that's not how it was communicated to the public. To suggest otherwise would be gaslighting. [1] https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-... [2] https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/90445 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/90445
- vmception 5y ago
  We should make fun of them, instead look at Pzifer, Moderna and the publications around them and other specific vaccines. They are very consistent about their proposed efficacy before they came out, their actual efficacy as they were rolled out, and now their actual decreasing efficacy over time including in the face of other seasonal variants, since we don't have seasonal vaccines.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    Well that's great, but the same authorities that just lied to me are also responsible to ensure safety of these vaccines. They're the same ones who tell me it's "safe and effective". Why would anybody trust them now?
    - vmception 5y ago
      They have a lot of work to do, I would say look outside of the US and also technologies used by different vaccines worldwide. A lot of the consternations fall apart, to me, when the aggregate response reaches the same conclusion, something impossible to be done by any guiding hand due to geopolitics.
      - incrudible 5y ago
        > A lot of the consternations fall apart, to me, when the aggregate response reaches the same conclusion... Does it though? The other countries that went all in on MRNA vaccines obviously don't have an interest in finding more problems with them. I have yet to see a single good study that determines risk/benefit stratified by age and risk factors. This rather new study shows that risk of Myocarditis is higher with vaccination rather than infection, in males under 40: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.21.21268209v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.21.21268209v... Furthermore, the risk appears to increase with each dose. Yet, many countries are now advising all the 12-17 year-olds to get a third dose - to speculatively decrease an already minor risk. This suggests to me that proper precaution is not actually being pursued, neither in the US nor elsewhere.
rsj_hn 5y ago
> That was the answer. People vocally cynical about the vaccines have always been using a strawman argument. No, we were repeatedly told that vaccines prevent both transmission and infection, and anyone trying to cynically rewrite history now is using a strawman argument. The whole point of the OSHA vaccine mandate was to prevent spread. If it was just a matter of how severe the disease is to you, then there is no rationale for forcing people to take the vaccine or any of these mandates, anymore than there would be a rationale for a mandate to force people to lose weight or exercise more. The AMA said in its amicus brief: "the widespread use of those vaccines is the best way to keep COVID-19 from spreading within workplaces".[3] Here is Biden: "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations."[1] Here is Fauci: Vaccinated people are "dead ends" for virus[2] CDC director Rochelle Walensky: "Vaccinated people don't transmit the virus"[4] [1] https://news.yahoo.com/ap-fact-check-biden-inflates-011843623.html https://news.yahoo.com/ap-fact-check-biden-inflates-01184362... [2] https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-... [3] https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21A244/206954/20211230135726547_FOR%20FILING%20SCOTUS%20OSHA%20ETS%20amicus.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21A244/206954/2021... [4] https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-people-dont-transmit-covid-19/ https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-peopl...
- vmception 5y ago
  > the widespread use of those vaccines is the best way to keep COVID-19 from spreading within workplaces [at a greater viral load than without the vaccines because all documents from Pzifer, Moderna, J&J, AstraZenaca, SinoPharm, and the people analyzing those documents made the same conclusion]
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    Except they didn't make that point at all, because it's not relevant to a mandate. Please don't try to rewrite the quotes I am citing to make them support your point as that is literally trying to rewrite history. We have a word for that, and it's "gaslighting".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

incrudible 5y ago

Fauci himself did claim the vaccinated are "dead ends" to the virus[1]. He dangled the carrot of "herd immunity through vaccination" around but then moved the threshold further and further, even admitting to being dishonest in the process[2]. Of course, we now all know herd immunity with vaccines is impossible and that they do next to nothing to inhibit spread. Perhaps some experts accurately predicted this, but that's not how it was communicated to the public. To suggest otherwise would be gaslighting. [1] https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-... [2] https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/90445 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/90445

vmception 5y ago
We should make fun of them, instead look at Pzifer, Moderna and the publications around them and other specific vaccines. They are very consistent about their proposed efficacy before they came out, their actual efficacy as they were rolled out, and now their actual decreasing efficacy over time including in the face of other seasonal variants, since we don't have seasonal vaccines.
- incrudible 5y ago
  Well that's great, but the same authorities that just lied to me are also responsible to ensure safety of these vaccines. They're the same ones who tell me it's "safe and effective". Why would anybody trust them now?
  - vmception 5y ago
    They have a lot of work to do, I would say look outside of the US and also technologies used by different vaccines worldwide. A lot of the consternations fall apart, to me, when the aggregate response reaches the same conclusion, something impossible to be done by any guiding hand due to geopolitics.
    - incrudible 5y ago
      > A lot of the consternations fall apart, to me, when the aggregate response reaches the same conclusion... Does it though? The other countries that went all in on MRNA vaccines obviously don't have an interest in finding more problems with them. I have yet to see a single good study that determines risk/benefit stratified by age and risk factors. This rather new study shows that risk of Myocarditis is higher with vaccination rather than infection, in males under 40: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.21.21268209v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.21.21268209v... Furthermore, the risk appears to increase with each dose. Yet, many countries are now advising all the 12-17 year-olds to get a third dose - to speculatively decrease an already minor risk. This suggests to me that proper precaution is not actually being pursued, neither in the US nor elsewhere.

rsj_hn 5y ago

> That was the answer. People vocally cynical about the vaccines have always been using a strawman argument. No, we were repeatedly told that vaccines prevent both transmission and infection, and anyone trying to cynically rewrite history now is using a strawman argument. The whole point of the OSHA vaccine mandate was to prevent spread. If it was just a matter of how severe the disease is to you, then there is no rationale for forcing people to take the vaccine or any of these mandates, anymore than there would be a rationale for a mandate to force people to lose weight or exercise more. The AMA said in its amicus brief: "the widespread use of those vaccines is the best way to keep COVID-19 from spreading within workplaces".[3] Here is Biden: "You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations."[1] Here is Fauci: Vaccinated people are "dead ends" for virus[2] CDC director Rochelle Walensky: "Vaccinated people don't transmit the virus"[4] [1] https://news.yahoo.com/ap-fact-check-biden-inflates-011843623.html https://news.yahoo.com/ap-fact-check-biden-inflates-01184362... [2] https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-vaccinated-people-become-dead-ends-for-the-coronavirus https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/553773-fauci-... [3] https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21A244/206954/20211230135726547_FOR%20FILING%20SCOTUS%20OSHA%20ETS%20amicus.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21A244/206954/2021... [4] https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-people-dont-transmit-covid-19/ https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-peopl...

vmception 5y ago
> the widespread use of those vaccines is the best way to keep COVID-19 from spreading within workplaces [at a greater viral load than without the vaccines because all documents from Pzifer, Moderna, J&J, AstraZenaca, SinoPharm, and the people analyzing those documents made the same conclusion]
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  Except they didn't make that point at all, because it's not relevant to a mandate. Please don't try to rewrite the quotes I am citing to make them support your point as that is literally trying to rewrite history. We have a word for that, and it's "gaslighting".