10 ms·

Yeah we I read somewhere that in Germany 60% of students go into trades and they have seriously beefed up their programs. But yeah there is a stigma here in the

Yeah we I read somewhere that in Germany 60% of students go into trades and they have seriously beefed up their programs. But yeah there is a stigma here in the US about trades, I think that's partly due to the social consequences of having insane wealth gaps and worshipping billionaires.

deltree7 5y ago
Huh? From Peter Thiel to Bill Gates to Steve Jobs to Zuckerburg, most billionaires don't push the college propaganda and have shown/encouraged path without college education. It's only the pseudo-social scientists who can't do proper data analysis (finding out the real confounding variable) that push the college propaganda
- zapataband1 5y ago
  That's true I should've said wealth. I think many people don't see many paths towards wealth if they aren't entrepreneurial, college used to be a good way towards upwards mobility. I think we're all realizing it's not really the case now
- salemh 5y ago
- justinator 5y ago
  Don't forget Elizabeth Holmes!
larkost 5y ago
Not only that, but depending on which state you are in in Germany (and Austria) you get routed at around 4th grade. If the teachers decide that you are academically fit for it then you go on to the Gymnasium, which prepares you for college, often with some focus for your class (e.g.: mathematics, arts, or science). If those same teachers decide that you are not up to college, but are still smart enough for something skilled, then you go on to Realschule, which still has some focus on academics, but is steering you to something like being a secretary, or a generic office worker. And finally there is the Hauptschule track. Here you are being groomed for something more involved with labor. The academics are not nearly so rigorous, and there is almost always the expectation that you will be steered into an apprenticeship for the final 4 years of what we (in the U.S.) would have as High School. Some of these apprenticeships can be quite prestigious (e.g.: the BMW technician school in Munich), but many of them are pretty pedestrian (e.g.: learning to run agricultural equipment). For most people this routing when they are 10 (or so) decides what routes are open to them later in life. There are exceptions to this (my host sister went to Realschule, and later took the Abiture, the the test that got her into college), but they are pretty rare. I have always been a bit leery of choices made so early in life, but it works pretty well in Germany.
- ffwszgf 5y ago
  This would never be allowed in America. the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy and the idea that you can divide kids by their skills/grades will get you in trouble, especially if you do it that early. If for whatever reason the demographics at each track are not the same as those of the nation it will get called racist and shut down quick.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy In Germany, our system is far more inclusive at all levels which means we don't have that much of a problem with early stage ethnic discrimination. Not to say we don't have any problems at all (far from it, in fact!) but it's nowhere near as bad as in the US, and additionally for once we Germans don't have historical baggage that's keeping us down.
  - scollet 5y ago
    You can't make something up and apply it to an entire continent.
- muffinman26 5y ago
  It actually doesn't work that great in Germany. The college dropout rate is about 28% (https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-out_from_German_Higher_Education_Institutions https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-...). The Hauptschule and Realschule routes seem much better designed than the US, but in terms of predicting who is suitable for college Germany isn't doing a very good job.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    28% is much lower than the ~37% failure rate to graduate in 6 years in US. In somewhere like Iran you may see very high graduation rates in part because you may need to be selected as best student (a former employer I interviewed with, the owner got into college because he was best math student in a class of something like 1000 children.) Dropout rate because of failure to adapt, of course, would be a good thing. Those who aren't fit for a career in engineering for instance were rapidly ejected into a different program from my public college I went to (like 25+% ejected first year, memory says it was more like 50%), which meant very few people wasted lots of money on a dead career path.
peter303 5y ago
Asian migrants (east, south) lok down on trades. Not core US middle class looks down on such.

deltree7 5y ago

Huh? From Peter Thiel to Bill Gates to Steve Jobs to Zuckerburg, most billionaires don't push the college propaganda and have shown/encouraged path without college education. It's only the pseudo-social scientists who can't do proper data analysis (finding out the real confounding variable) that push the college propaganda

zapataband1 5y ago
That's true I should've said wealth. I think many people don't see many paths towards wealth if they aren't entrepreneurial, college used to be a good way towards upwards mobility. I think we're all realizing it's not really the case now
salemh 5y ago
justinator 5y ago
Don't forget Elizabeth Holmes!

larkost 5y ago

Not only that, but depending on which state you are in in Germany (and Austria) you get routed at around 4th grade. If the teachers decide that you are academically fit for it then you go on to the Gymnasium, which prepares you for college, often with some focus for your class (e.g.: mathematics, arts, or science). If those same teachers decide that you are not up to college, but are still smart enough for something skilled, then you go on to Realschule, which still has some focus on academics, but is steering you to something like being a secretary, or a generic office worker. And finally there is the Hauptschule track. Here you are being groomed for something more involved with labor. The academics are not nearly so rigorous, and there is almost always the expectation that you will be steered into an apprenticeship for the final 4 years of what we (in the U.S.) would have as High School. Some of these apprenticeships can be quite prestigious (e.g.: the BMW technician school in Munich), but many of them are pretty pedestrian (e.g.: learning to run agricultural equipment). For most people this routing when they are 10 (or so) decides what routes are open to them later in life. There are exceptions to this (my host sister went to Realschule, and later took the Abiture, the the test that got her into college), but they are pretty rare. I have always been a bit leery of choices made so early in life, but it works pretty well in Germany.

ffwszgf 5y ago
This would never be allowed in America. the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy and the idea that you can divide kids by their skills/grades will get you in trouble, especially if you do it that early. If for whatever reason the demographics at each track are not the same as those of the nation it will get called racist and shut down quick.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > the notion of “merit” in the US is associated with white supremacy In Germany, our system is far more inclusive at all levels which means we don't have that much of a problem with early stage ethnic discrimination. Not to say we don't have any problems at all (far from it, in fact!) but it's nowhere near as bad as in the US, and additionally for once we Germans don't have historical baggage that's keeping us down.
- scollet 5y ago
  You can't make something up and apply it to an entire continent.
muffinman26 5y ago
It actually doesn't work that great in Germany. The college dropout rate is about 28% (https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-out_from_German_Higher_Education_Institutions https://researchgate.net/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-...). The Hauptschule and Realschule routes seem much better designed than the US, but in terms of predicting who is suitable for college Germany isn't doing a very good job.
- notch656a 5y ago
  28% is much lower than the ~37% failure rate to graduate in 6 years in US. In somewhere like Iran you may see very high graduation rates in part because you may need to be selected as best student (a former employer I interviewed with, the owner got into college because he was best math student in a class of something like 1000 children.) Dropout rate because of failure to adapt, of course, would be a good thing. Those who aren't fit for a career in engineering for instance were rapidly ejected into a different program from my public college I went to (like 25+% ejected first year, memory says it was more like 50%), which meant very few people wasted lots of money on a dead career path.

peter303 5y ago

Asian migrants (east, south) lok down on trades. Not core US middle class looks down on such.