6 ms·

Part of the problem is the social stigma of not having a college degree. Not sure how to fix that

DerArzt 5y ago
Step one would be to re-asses what happens in highschools. I remember a decade ago when I was in highschool we had to do college prep stuff mandated by the state government that all but said that College was the only route.
- olyjohn 5y ago
  This! When I was in high school, the school barely mentioned Running Start or the local trade school. My high school computer classes consisted of me learning from the way-underpaid and overworked IT guy, and not any actual teachers. The high school only had classes on Keyboarding, 10-key, and a handful of Macs that had some Photoshop on them for the photography students... Meanwhile Running Start gets you your 2 year degree by the time you graduate, so 2 years less debt, and 2 years ahead of everybody else. The trade school had game programming classes, automotive, electronics classes... which were things I was actually interested in learning at the time and were not remotely available at the HS itself. But if you do either of those two things, the high school loses and FTE count, and the money gets diverted to the other school. So the HS tends to hardly tell anybody about them. Not to mention, they made the trade school seem like a place where delinquents go who can't handle high school and get into college. Looking back, I wish I had known more about the trade school, because there were so many more interesting classes there!
vmception 5y ago
These aren't colleges problem. US institutions are 300 years old, they will survive this 60 year old meme, and go back to being meeting spots for the well-money and influential who also become the learned population.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lapsedacademic 5y ago
> the social stigma of not having a college degree People have been saying this for decades, but is it still really a thing? Perhaps on the coasts? If you're in a small or mid-sized city in the midwest or the south, it's almost exactly the opposite...
- ModernMech 5y ago
  It’s not so much a social stigma as it is different socialization. People who went to college use the experience to relate to one another long into adulthood. More than anything that’s why students go to college (source: college students).
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    As in, we went to college together therefore we're friends and we refer each others / pass each other clients? That doesn't ring true for my case. I'm sure it's incredibly anecdotal but college level networking lasted 2 years top for me - and it was all ex-coworkers from there on.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      No, what I mean is that people who went to college share a similar socialization process. I'm not talking about networking, I'm talking about culture. It's the same as people who went to high school versus people who were home schooled. Everything from bonding (or not) with your roommate, to going out late at night with your hallmates, to meeting boys/girls and dealing with the strange dramas that ensue, your first off campus party, cramming in the libraries at 4am for exams, hanging out in the [insert major] lounge and complaining about your professors, tailgating at football games... just all the little incidental things that are part of college life. People who went through college can automatically bond over their separate experiences of these things.
- kodah 5y ago
  It absolutely is but it depends on the field. My first few years in software were filled with questions like, "Why didn't you finish?" We also continue to interview in ways that are more accommodating for college graduates and attendees, regardless of whether it's needed or not.
scruple 5y ago
I'm in my early 40s. I dropped out of university. I've been programming professionally, in a wide range of contexts and in various industries and niche markets, for over 15 years. I still deal with the stigma associated with not having a college degree. It's not as frequent today as it was when I was at year 1-5, but it still comes up often enough that I get the sense it will never go away.
- j4yav 5y ago
  Curious how it comes up? I’m 42 and dropped out at 16, and it has just never come up, nobody has ever asked me once. I’m not doubting your experience, just curious where our paths differed since it’s such a stark contrast. I’m not a programmer but worked in ops, then product management, then CPO. Maybe it’s something to do with that?
  - jnwatson 5y ago
    I'm with you. In my professional career, I've had 2 bosses that never went to college. Never been an issue.
  - yardie 5y ago
    Possibly enterprise development. In my experience they are a lot more credentials driven then startups and boutique development firms. There are outliers like Microsoft, Netflix, Google. But you have a to be a truly outstanding developer without a degree rather than a pretty good one with a degree.
    - scruple 5y ago
      Yes, most of my work has been in fields that are highly credentialed.
  - scruple 5y ago
    I'm a Senior II and tech lead at work and I've always been on the programming track. Around ~22 months ago, I had a cold call from someone in HR asking me, "Did you finish your degree?" It was unusual. I'm not sure where they got the idea that I was "working on it" in the first place. This was happening around the same time that we had been acquired, so I imagine that it was related. More recently, around the end of last summer, a mid-level on my team had apparently heard from someone else that I didn't have a degree and was probing me about my experience, etc. It also came up in conversation during the Christmas holiday, with some friends, while playing an online game. This group of friends is also in tech, though they're a little younger than I am. In that conversation, they were surprised to learn that I didn't have a degree but held patents in the CV space (work done on a bootstrapped start-up that myself and a friend/co-founder worked on in the early/mid 2010s). There are other examples from the past but I don't really hang onto these sorts of things. I would add that I don't think any of these were bias or malicious or anything like that.
stocknoob 5y ago
Yep. The GP thinks parents consider their child being a forklift driver vs teacher as equivalent outcomes if they pay the same?
- kristjansson 5y ago
  Income over the next 4 quarters is, of course, the only factor by which one can distinguish occupations.
- ksdale 5y ago
  Would you be ashamed if your child was a forklift driver? The world needs people to do useful things, and we shouldn't shame people for doing useful things.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    Not ashamed, but forklift driving will be automated sooner than teaching (probably way sooner). I'd prefer them to run the most lucrative business they can operate and accrue capital. I think at some point we'll all be screwed by automation (including teachers, developers, baristas and doctors) and too poor people won't have a reason to exist. Better to get rich and independent from society before we can print human-like workers in a factory.
  - stocknoob 5y ago
    No shame, I don’t care what people do as long as it doesn’t harm others. People should enjoy their lives. But, many (most?) people are status-conscious and equal pay != equal prestige. College is primarily about opening doors to higher prestige.
- indymike 5y ago
  It is a crime that teachers are paid so poorly. No judgement was intended about career choices (I'm the GP).
mbesto 5y ago
Let's start with having the President not pledging for "college for all" https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/01/17/obamas-misguided-college-pledge-eight-years-later/?sh=7f76791c403b https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/01/17/obama...
- teawrecks 5y ago
  Meanwhile in most of Europe, college is free. I wonder how their attendance rates have fared in comparison.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    It is my understanding (based on what I know of Germany) that only certain degrees (mostly STEM) are free, and available to students who qualify (academically).
    - Siira 5y ago
      That’s fair. If someone wants to get a degree in a “field” that is not contributing to the society’s GDP, the degree is most likely only good as a signaling device for its holder. Paying their signaling cost out of the tax payer’s pocket is lunacy.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - giaour 5y ago
      I recall that in France and Italy, tuition wasn't free, but it was on the order of ~200-300 euros per year. STEM degree tuition cost more since those students had more expensive facilities like laboratories. Take this anecdata with a grain of salt; it's nearly 20 years old.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    It's free if you're poor, otherwise it's cheap (think 3-5k€ per year). The European governments didn't distort the market to make universities as grand and expensive as the American ones (where the price raised 1500% since the 80s). European universities are sad places which get the job done for relatively little money. You're still spending 3-5+ years of your life though, and that's a currency you can't earn more of.
HPsquared 5y ago
It depends on the context: having a college degree is stigmatized in some places.
indymike 5y ago
I solved it by starting my own company :-)
polygotdomain 5y ago
My degrees are not in CS related fields at all (both in Architecture). I know that just being able to "check the box" has gotten me in the door. Only a small handful of the places I've interviewed with over the last 10+ years have cared that my degrees weren't in CS. In some cases I've corrected them, "no, building architecture, not software architecture", and no one's seemed to care. While you don't have to have a degree to get into tech, having one certainly makes things easier

Step one would be to re-asses what happens in highschools. I remember a decade ago when I was in highschool we had to do college prep stuff mandated by the state government that all but said that College was the only route.

olyjohn 5y ago
This! When I was in high school, the school barely mentioned Running Start or the local trade school. My high school computer classes consisted of me learning from the way-underpaid and overworked IT guy, and not any actual teachers. The high school only had classes on Keyboarding, 10-key, and a handful of Macs that had some Photoshop on them for the photography students... Meanwhile Running Start gets you your 2 year degree by the time you graduate, so 2 years less debt, and 2 years ahead of everybody else. The trade school had game programming classes, automotive, electronics classes... which were things I was actually interested in learning at the time and were not remotely available at the HS itself. But if you do either of those two things, the high school loses and FTE count, and the money gets diverted to the other school. So the HS tends to hardly tell anybody about them. Not to mention, they made the trade school seem like a place where delinquents go who can't handle high school and get into college. Looking back, I wish I had known more about the trade school, because there were so many more interesting classes there!

vmception 5y ago

These aren't colleges problem. US institutions are 300 years old, they will survive this 60 year old meme, and go back to being meeting spots for the well-money and influential who also become the learned population.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

lapsedacademic 5y ago

> the social stigma of not having a college degree People have been saying this for decades, but is it still really a thing? Perhaps on the coasts? If you're in a small or mid-sized city in the midwest or the south, it's almost exactly the opposite...

ModernMech 5y ago
It’s not so much a social stigma as it is different socialization. People who went to college use the experience to relate to one another long into adulthood. More than anything that’s why students go to college (source: college students).
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  As in, we went to college together therefore we're friends and we refer each others / pass each other clients? That doesn't ring true for my case. I'm sure it's incredibly anecdotal but college level networking lasted 2 years top for me - and it was all ex-coworkers from there on.
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    No, what I mean is that people who went to college share a similar socialization process. I'm not talking about networking, I'm talking about culture. It's the same as people who went to high school versus people who were home schooled. Everything from bonding (or not) with your roommate, to going out late at night with your hallmates, to meeting boys/girls and dealing with the strange dramas that ensue, your first off campus party, cramming in the libraries at 4am for exams, hanging out in the [insert major] lounge and complaining about your professors, tailgating at football games... just all the little incidental things that are part of college life. People who went through college can automatically bond over their separate experiences of these things.
kodah 5y ago
It absolutely is but it depends on the field. My first few years in software were filled with questions like, "Why didn't you finish?" We also continue to interview in ways that are more accommodating for college graduates and attendees, regardless of whether it's needed or not.

scruple 5y ago

I'm in my early 40s. I dropped out of university. I've been programming professionally, in a wide range of contexts and in various industries and niche markets, for over 15 years. I still deal with the stigma associated with not having a college degree. It's not as frequent today as it was when I was at year 1-5, but it still comes up often enough that I get the sense it will never go away.

j4yav 5y ago
Curious how it comes up? I’m 42 and dropped out at 16, and it has just never come up, nobody has ever asked me once. I’m not doubting your experience, just curious where our paths differed since it’s such a stark contrast. I’m not a programmer but worked in ops, then product management, then CPO. Maybe it’s something to do with that?
- jnwatson 5y ago
  I'm with you. In my professional career, I've had 2 bosses that never went to college. Never been an issue.
- yardie 5y ago
  Possibly enterprise development. In my experience they are a lot more credentials driven then startups and boutique development firms. There are outliers like Microsoft, Netflix, Google. But you have a to be a truly outstanding developer without a degree rather than a pretty good one with a degree.
  - scruple 5y ago
    Yes, most of my work has been in fields that are highly credentialed.
- scruple 5y ago
  I'm a Senior II and tech lead at work and I've always been on the programming track. Around ~22 months ago, I had a cold call from someone in HR asking me, "Did you finish your degree?" It was unusual. I'm not sure where they got the idea that I was "working on it" in the first place. This was happening around the same time that we had been acquired, so I imagine that it was related. More recently, around the end of last summer, a mid-level on my team had apparently heard from someone else that I didn't have a degree and was probing me about my experience, etc. It also came up in conversation during the Christmas holiday, with some friends, while playing an online game. This group of friends is also in tech, though they're a little younger than I am. In that conversation, they were surprised to learn that I didn't have a degree but held patents in the CV space (work done on a bootstrapped start-up that myself and a friend/co-founder worked on in the early/mid 2010s). There are other examples from the past but I don't really hang onto these sorts of things. I would add that I don't think any of these were bias or malicious or anything like that.

stocknoob 5y ago

Yep. The GP thinks parents consider their child being a forklift driver vs teacher as equivalent outcomes if they pay the same?

kristjansson 5y ago
Income over the next 4 quarters is, of course, the only factor by which one can distinguish occupations.
ksdale 5y ago
Would you be ashamed if your child was a forklift driver? The world needs people to do useful things, and we shouldn't shame people for doing useful things.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Not ashamed, but forklift driving will be automated sooner than teaching (probably way sooner). I'd prefer them to run the most lucrative business they can operate and accrue capital. I think at some point we'll all be screwed by automation (including teachers, developers, baristas and doctors) and too poor people won't have a reason to exist. Better to get rich and independent from society before we can print human-like workers in a factory.
- stocknoob 5y ago
  No shame, I don’t care what people do as long as it doesn’t harm others. People should enjoy their lives. But, many (most?) people are status-conscious and equal pay != equal prestige. College is primarily about opening doors to higher prestige.
indymike 5y ago
It is a crime that teachers are paid so poorly. No judgement was intended about career choices (I'm the GP).

mbesto 5y ago

Let's start with having the President not pledging for "college for all" https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/01/17/obamas-misguided-college-pledge-eight-years-later/?sh=7f76791c403b https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/01/17/obama...

teawrecks 5y ago
Meanwhile in most of Europe, college is free. I wonder how their attendance rates have fared in comparison.
- mikem170 5y ago
  It is my understanding (based on what I know of Germany) that only certain degrees (mostly STEM) are free, and available to students who qualify (academically).
  - Siira 5y ago
    That’s fair. If someone wants to get a degree in a “field” that is not contributing to the society’s GDP, the degree is most likely only good as a signaling device for its holder. Paying their signaling cost out of the tax payer’s pocket is lunacy.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - giaour 5y ago
    I recall that in France and Italy, tuition wasn't free, but it was on the order of ~200-300 euros per year. STEM degree tuition cost more since those students had more expensive facilities like laboratories. Take this anecdata with a grain of salt; it's nearly 20 years old.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  It's free if you're poor, otherwise it's cheap (think 3-5k€ per year). The European governments didn't distort the market to make universities as grand and expensive as the American ones (where the price raised 1500% since the 80s). European universities are sad places which get the job done for relatively little money. You're still spending 3-5+ years of your life though, and that's a currency you can't earn more of.

HPsquared 5y ago

It depends on the context: having a college degree is stigmatized in some places.

indymike 5y ago

I solved it by starting my own company :-)

polygotdomain 5y ago

My degrees are not in CS related fields at all (both in Architecture). I know that just being able to "check the box" has gotten me in the door. Only a small handful of the places I've interviewed with over the last 10+ years have cared that my degrees weren't in CS. In some cases I've corrected them, "no, building architecture, not software architecture", and no one's seemed to care. While you don't have to have a degree to get into tech, having one certainly makes things easier