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>something no one cares about like communications, philosophy, journalism, etc. Excuse me? No one cares about fields that employ 2.8 million workers [BLS.gov 2

>something no one cares about like communications, philosophy, journalism, etc. Excuse me? No one cares about fields that employ 2.8 million workers [BLS.gov 2020] ? No one cares about work that provides information, entertainment, and shapes political views? FYI your doctors, lawyers, and politician's biggest expense line items usually include money going to communications and media professionals. I and many others resonate with the notion of 'useless degrees', but you chose some terrible examples. That said, there is more value to education than vocation, and your inability to see that shows that you missed quite a bit in yours. The classical liberal arts education could and should be continually reimagined for a changing world, but to wholly discount its importance is capitalist orthodoxy that misses much of what life is about. Read a goddamn book.

ravenstine 5y ago
> Read a goddamn book. > [...] to wholly discount its importance is capitalist orthodoxy Touched a nerve, eh? You have no clue what books I've read or how many. I didn't "wholly discount" the importance of so-named classical liberal arts. But there aren't many good reasons for putting one's self into debt to get a degree in such things. Be honest, liberal arts isn't heart surgery. Liberal arts can be learned for free if it is the knowledge itself that is of highest importance. The cost of majoring in these areas of studies are hardly congruent with how well they prepare someone to become a part of the world outside of academia and the cost that they bear. Perhaps to certain individuals the cost still is justified by the end result they are aiming towards, but to assume that everyone going into the liberal arts is in college not because society is cajoling them into it would be highly ignorant. You're mistaking my valuation of the degree for a valuation of the subject mater itself. Are you familiar with the growing amount of student debt in the United States? Liberal arts are no exception, and there's nothing I'm aware of about fields it encompasses that justifies the expense in both time and debt. It appears to be a racket.
- reilly3000 5y ago
  > Touched a nerve, eh? That you did heh... I am a pretty ardent advocate for journalism and the people who do it, paid or unpaid. I've also worked in digital advertising and communications, and even spent a semester as an adjunct teaching a mostly vocational course in the same, so I suppose the $1500 they paid me in 2014 makes me a semi-interested party. That said, I've also spent the intervening time with self-directed, mostly free education that has helped me transform into a developer with a Principal Engineer title and I'm all about embracing that form of learning as a general practice. The ROI for many degrees is abysmal. There's been some really great research on in this area, including my favorite report here: https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7583742/ https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7583742/ The worst cases from that data approach -$1M ROI. Ouch. Those institutions deserve to be held to account, they are doing a disservice to their students and society for putting people into such economic peril. The term leach seems to apply. I'll even concede that prescribing classical liberal education for all is somewhat paternalistic, even overly anglo-centric. We can do better. Still, I think education is critical for democracy to be functional and as a society its worth investing in. We're generally on the same page as far as I can tell. But yes, I will become quite cranky if you call journalism useless :)
  - lapsedacademic 5y ago
    -1M for a religion degree from Talmudical Seminary of Bobov... where tuition after aid is $7,549. ...how do you even spend $1M on a religion degree that costs less than $10k/yr?! Surely this is just actual straight-up white-and-black fraud, or some sort of weird data entry error, right?
    - reilly3000 5y ago
      The methodology is explained here: https://freopp.org/how-we-calculated-the-return-on-investment-of-a-college-degree-e93bce69f9c7 https://freopp.org/how-we-calculated-the-return-on-investmen... This model definitely doesn't account for how compensation for clergy works, which typically includes parsonage and nontangibles. And the $1m isn't based on cost, but opportunity cost of missing working years, investing the money elsewhere, and more. It definitely doesn't work right for these and other outliers, and even some of the salary data doesn't make any sense. For instance: GA Savannah College of Art and Design Manufacturing Engineering. Earnings at Age 25: $27,068 Earnings at Age 45: $30,387 ROI (Before Completion Adjustment): -$353,221 Yet salary.com shows salaries at $64-$153K, median $108K. The tuition is $38K / year for a bachelor's degree, so I could see how somebody would be in the red for a while, but it also seems that it would have a positive ROI if one were to stick with the field for their career. https://www.salary.com/research/salary/general/manufacturing-engineer-salary https://www.salary.com/research/salary/general/manufacturing...
      - lapsedacademic 5y ago
        Thanks for your research. That makes a lot more sense.
anm89 5y ago
this type of discourse doesn't belong on HN. you should take it somewhere else.

ravenstine 5y ago

> Read a goddamn book. > [...] to wholly discount its importance is capitalist orthodoxy Touched a nerve, eh? You have no clue what books I've read or how many. I didn't "wholly discount" the importance of so-named classical liberal arts. But there aren't many good reasons for putting one's self into debt to get a degree in such things. Be honest, liberal arts isn't heart surgery. Liberal arts can be learned for free if it is the knowledge itself that is of highest importance. The cost of majoring in these areas of studies are hardly congruent with how well they prepare someone to become a part of the world outside of academia and the cost that they bear. Perhaps to certain individuals the cost still is justified by the end result they are aiming towards, but to assume that everyone going into the liberal arts is in college not because society is cajoling them into it would be highly ignorant. You're mistaking my valuation of the degree for a valuation of the subject mater itself. Are you familiar with the growing amount of student debt in the United States? Liberal arts are no exception, and there's nothing I'm aware of about fields it encompasses that justifies the expense in both time and debt. It appears to be a racket.

reilly3000 5y ago
> Touched a nerve, eh? That you did heh... I am a pretty ardent advocate for journalism and the people who do it, paid or unpaid. I've also worked in digital advertising and communications, and even spent a semester as an adjunct teaching a mostly vocational course in the same, so I suppose the $1500 they paid me in 2014 makes me a semi-interested party. That said, I've also spent the intervening time with self-directed, mostly free education that has helped me transform into a developer with a Principal Engineer title and I'm all about embracing that form of learning as a general practice. The ROI for many degrees is abysmal. There's been some really great research on in this area, including my favorite report here: https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7583742/ https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7583742/ The worst cases from that data approach -$1M ROI. Ouch. Those institutions deserve to be held to account, they are doing a disservice to their students and society for putting people into such economic peril. The term leach seems to apply. I'll even concede that prescribing classical liberal education for all is somewhat paternalistic, even overly anglo-centric. We can do better. Still, I think education is critical for democracy to be functional and as a society its worth investing in. We're generally on the same page as far as I can tell. But yes, I will become quite cranky if you call journalism useless :)
- lapsedacademic 5y ago
  -1M for a religion degree from Talmudical Seminary of Bobov... where tuition after aid is $7,549. ...how do you even spend $1M on a religion degree that costs less than $10k/yr?! Surely this is just actual straight-up white-and-black fraud, or some sort of weird data entry error, right?
  - reilly3000 5y ago
    The methodology is explained here: https://freopp.org/how-we-calculated-the-return-on-investment-of-a-college-degree-e93bce69f9c7 https://freopp.org/how-we-calculated-the-return-on-investmen... This model definitely doesn't account for how compensation for clergy works, which typically includes parsonage and nontangibles. And the $1m isn't based on cost, but opportunity cost of missing working years, investing the money elsewhere, and more. It definitely doesn't work right for these and other outliers, and even some of the salary data doesn't make any sense. For instance: GA Savannah College of Art and Design Manufacturing Engineering. Earnings at Age 25: $27,068 Earnings at Age 45: $30,387 ROI (Before Completion Adjustment): -$353,221 Yet salary.com shows salaries at $64-$153K, median $108K. The tuition is $38K / year for a bachelor's degree, so I could see how somebody would be in the red for a while, but it also seems that it would have a positive ROI if one were to stick with the field for their career. https://www.salary.com/research/salary/general/manufacturing-engineer-salary https://www.salary.com/research/salary/general/manufacturing...
    - lapsedacademic 5y ago
      Thanks for your research. That makes a lot more sense.

anm89 5y ago

this type of discourse doesn't belong on HN. you should take it somewhere else.