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I'd assume it'd be easier to build camaraderie between in-person coworkers than faceless Slack names. Coworkers that know each other well can probably collabora

I'd assume it'd be easier to build camaraderie between in-person coworkers than faceless Slack names. Coworkers that know each other well can probably collaborate better

drchopchop 5y ago
You can solve that with occasional, in-person team meetups (a few times per year). Meeting people in person, at least once, is valuable. It improves communication, helps people feel assimilated to the company and team, and creates a mental image of a three-dimensional co-worker (instead of just a faceless Slack handle) Sitting physically next to people every day, especially for engineers, is often not valuable. This is especially true for those who have significant commutes or families.
- wreath 5y ago
  > You can solve that with occasional, in-person team meetups (a few times per year). Unfortunately this doesn't really cut it. There is a huge difference between the teams I worked in where we were all remote vs the ones where all of us were in the office. The camaraderie, the amount of slack we gave each other, how fast we delivered and the overall mood was much better despite having wildly different personalities. With remote, you are interfacing with only one dimension of someone's personality and they may rub you the wrong way in a PR comment or otherwise and you can easily right them off. It's different when you go for lunch with the same person and talk about work or other stuff. Another thing is that talking about work-related-but-not-current-project-related stuff is much easier when people in the same location and the conversation starts off spontaneously. Whereas in a remote setting it needs to be a bit more organized so there is an overhead. There are a lot of pros to remote though, like not having to be subjected to your colleague's poor hygiene.
- RestlessMind 5y ago
  > You can solve that with occasional, in-person team meetups (a few times per year). Doesn't ring true to me after spending 2 years in a remote-first setup. Even post-vcxx setup where everyone could meet freely didn't facilitate as much in-person interaction as I was looking forward to. > Sitting physically next to people every day, especially for engineers, is often not valuable. For junior engineers trying to onboard, sitting close to their mentors is big help. Same for senior TLs who are coordinating complex technical projects across a team of 10-12 engineers or even more. Having everyone around is a big time saver for the overall project. WFH/Remote setup is great only for the engineers who are self-sufficient and neither need mentoring from others nor have to coordinate and lead other engineers' work.
- drstewart 5y ago
  >Sitting physically next to people every day, especially for engineers, is often not valuable. You make a lot of questionable assertions. Why would meeting up a few times a year be as good as seeing someone every day?
it_does_follow 5y ago
As someone who has worked remote long before the pandemic, this is a myth in my experience. I have had at least as many friendships formed with remote coworkers as I have in person office workers. Occasional get-togethers do help with this quite a lot, but it's not necessary. What I find strange about this reasoning is: doesn't every hacker have friends from around the world they've never met in person? From various software projects, open source contributions, online community connections etc I have a fairly long list of people who are very important to me that I've never met in person.
- weatherlite 5y ago
  > I have a fairly long list of people who are very important to me that I've never met in person It happens for some but I can't say its the norm. Most people's meaningful relationships are based on real life, at least initially or some of the time.
weatherlite 5y ago
Even still surely some hybrid solution would suffice - where's the gain in daily office commute? I really start disliking my fellow workers when I am forced to see them everyday. Once or twice a week makes everyone more tolerable.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > some hybrid solution would suffice Hybrid enables a move from San Francisco to e.g. Petaluma. It doesn't permit most workers to move to Idaho. That argues for an expansion of the Bay Area over its demise.
  - weatherlite 5y ago
    It's hard to tell what will happen; surely most American companies will leave a main headquarters in the U.S which will probably be hybrid. Than they will have lower cost centers (that will be either remote or hybrid as well). Overall probably this will push down wages in SV and move it up in places like Germany or Ukraine. But I don't think it will be that dramatic. Salaries will still be very generous in SV.

I'd assume it'd be easier to build camaraderie between in-person coworkers than faceless Slack names. Coworkers that know each other well can probably collaborate better

drchopchop 5y ago

You can solve that with occasional, in-person team meetups (a few times per year). Meeting people in person, at least once, is valuable. It improves communication, helps people feel assimilated to the company and team, and creates a mental image of a three-dimensional co-worker (instead of just a faceless Slack handle) Sitting physically next to people every day, especially for engineers, is often not valuable. This is especially true for those who have significant commutes or families.

wreath 5y ago
> You can solve that with occasional, in-person team meetups (a few times per year). Unfortunately this doesn't really cut it. There is a huge difference between the teams I worked in where we were all remote vs the ones where all of us were in the office. The camaraderie, the amount of slack we gave each other, how fast we delivered and the overall mood was much better despite having wildly different personalities. With remote, you are interfacing with only one dimension of someone's personality and they may rub you the wrong way in a PR comment or otherwise and you can easily right them off. It's different when you go for lunch with the same person and talk about work or other stuff. Another thing is that talking about work-related-but-not-current-project-related stuff is much easier when people in the same location and the conversation starts off spontaneously. Whereas in a remote setting it needs to be a bit more organized so there is an overhead. There are a lot of pros to remote though, like not having to be subjected to your colleague's poor hygiene.
RestlessMind 5y ago
> You can solve that with occasional, in-person team meetups (a few times per year). Doesn't ring true to me after spending 2 years in a remote-first setup. Even post-vcxx setup where everyone could meet freely didn't facilitate as much in-person interaction as I was looking forward to. > Sitting physically next to people every day, especially for engineers, is often not valuable. For junior engineers trying to onboard, sitting close to their mentors is big help. Same for senior TLs who are coordinating complex technical projects across a team of 10-12 engineers or even more. Having everyone around is a big time saver for the overall project. WFH/Remote setup is great only for the engineers who are self-sufficient and neither need mentoring from others nor have to coordinate and lead other engineers' work.
drstewart 5y ago
>Sitting physically next to people every day, especially for engineers, is often not valuable. You make a lot of questionable assertions. Why would meeting up a few times a year be as good as seeing someone every day?

it_does_follow 5y ago

As someone who has worked remote long before the pandemic, this is a myth in my experience. I have had at least as many friendships formed with remote coworkers as I have in person office workers. Occasional get-togethers do help with this quite a lot, but it's not necessary. What I find strange about this reasoning is: doesn't every hacker have friends from around the world they've never met in person? From various software projects, open source contributions, online community connections etc I have a fairly long list of people who are very important to me that I've never met in person.

weatherlite 5y ago
> I have a fairly long list of people who are very important to me that I've never met in person It happens for some but I can't say its the norm. Most people's meaningful relationships are based on real life, at least initially or some of the time.

weatherlite 5y ago

Even still surely some hybrid solution would suffice - where's the gain in daily office commute? I really start disliking my fellow workers when I am forced to see them everyday. Once or twice a week makes everyone more tolerable.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> some hybrid solution would suffice Hybrid enables a move from San Francisco to e.g. Petaluma. It doesn't permit most workers to move to Idaho. That argues for an expansion of the Bay Area over its demise.
- weatherlite 5y ago
  It's hard to tell what will happen; surely most American companies will leave a main headquarters in the U.S which will probably be hybrid. Than they will have lower cost centers (that will be either remote or hybrid as well). Overall probably this will push down wages in SV and move it up in places like Germany or Ukraine. But I don't think it will be that dramatic. Salaries will still be very generous in SV.