4 ms·

We are talking about 50-60k before taxes here though (e.g. healthcare isn't included yet) - there really is not that much left in the end, especially compared t

We are talking about 50-60k before taxes here though (e.g. healthcare isn't included yet) - there really is not that much left in the end, especially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Also all inclusive contracts are quite common or some legal workarounds with payed overtime after x amount of hours (where x amount would be working 2 times as much per week), never heard of unions for this sector in DACH either. Frankly getting a 10k salary bump in Europe is still pretty solid - for 20k I would bet most engineers around here would make a switch. (note that you tax down ~50% above the 60k you earn from now on). > Ah, and in some countries having too many companies on the CV isn't well seen, it appears the candidate isn't able to fit-in anywhere. True, but if someone switched jobs every year it feels like a red flag to me anywhere where the cost of hiring actually matters I would say.

fnord123 5y ago
> specially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Debatable. In most European countries, if you lose your job you still have health cover. If you lose your job in the US you do not keep the company benefit health insurance (except as part of a severance package for a limited time). For H1-B visa holders, they must leave the country (this is relevant for anyone based in Europe who is trying to determine whether to stay in Europe or use a visa programme to relocate to the US).
- wreath 5y ago
  Depends where in Europe. In Germany, if you lose your job you still have to pay for health insurance, at least the first three months until your unemployment kicks in (assuming you're eligible for it, like in most cases) and I don't know if unemployment covers your health insurance. If you are married and you and your spouse were on the same statutory health insurance, then you're covered by your spouse. Which can be the case in the US depending on your spouse's coverage.
  - jyounker 5y ago
    Once you are unemployed you do have to pay for your health insurance, but it's heavily subsidized, costing (as a 50 year old) around 200 a month. Compare that to 1200 per month in the USA. It's a huge difference.
    - wreath 5y ago
      It's a huge difference when you compare absolute numbers for sure. But also there is a huge difference in taxes. You could argue 1200 is not so bad when you pay 25% taxes instead of 40% for example.
      - remram 5y ago
        You don't pay income taxes when unemployed.
        wreath 5y ago
        That's not what I meant. When you are employed in tech and pay say 25% taxes, saving 1200 for a bad day (when you are unemployed and have to pay insurance yourself) is not so bad compared to when you pay 40 taxes.
        remram 5y ago
        You've gone full circle then. Someone was pointing out that salaries are lower in Europe, someone else replied that on the other hand costs are lower (for example health insurance). To which you reply that it's fine because salary are lower.
    - _rtld_global_ro 5y ago
      Get ACA, should be a lot lower than $1200/month if AGI isn't really high (assuming unemployed), now if you want CORBA that could be a different story.
    - jandrewrogers 5y ago
- bluGill 5y ago
  But it isn't hard to find a job, and there are other options for health care while you are looking. I agree that it is stupid to tie health insurance to your job, but it isn't the big deal you make it out to be, so long as you have savings
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    so long as you have savings That phrase is key. Most Americans don’t have savings. Even among the professional class, savings are often nowhere near high enough to pay OOP for insurance at market rate.
  - fnord123 5y ago
    I'm not an expert in american insurance policies (not even a novice, tbh) but if you have an ongoing condition and then lose insurance, and then get new insurance with your easy-to-get new job then would the ongoing condition be considered a pre-existing condition and hence fall into question regarding cover?
    - ryan93 5y ago
      Not since 2009
  - _hcuq 5y ago
    As a 55 yr old with 3 dependents, the insurance is $25,000 per year. That’s quite a hill to climb before I see a penny of income into my pocket.
- literallycancer 5y ago
  What's stopping you from choosing and paying for your own health insurance in the US?
Joeri 5y ago
What you do get (speaking here from my experience in Belgium) is that the top of the wage scale is invisible because past a certain tier everyone works as a consultant to avoid the high taxes. It is not unusual in senior tech roles to charge 1K+ per day or 20K+ per month, and pay a lower effective tax rate on that income, while having long term engagements with the same companies so that little time is lost to churn.
- codethief 5y ago
  > everyone works as a consultant to avoid the high taxes You mean, to avoid the social security fees (health/pension/unemployment/…)? After all, as a consultant (whether incorporated or not) you still need to pay taxes and the rates are pretty similar to tax rates for employees.
  - Joeri 5y ago
    The people that I know that are self-employed and earning high incomes generally are incorporated and have an accountant to set up tax avoidance strategies to have a lower effective tax rate. Effective tax rates seem to follow a gauss curve, low at the bottom, low at the top, highest for the middle earners.
    - distances 5y ago
      That'll vary by country and won't be efficient everywhere in Europe. Certainly in Germany freelancers pay the same taxes as regular employees, and setting up a company means more taxes, not less.
buran77 5y ago
A salary is like RAM, you only notice if it's too little. Once you reach this comfort level where you can cover your expenses and feed your lifestyle without having to think too much about it, getting some extra will make far less impact than the number might suggest. Not having enough money is like drowning and you'd do anything for a breath of air. Having just enough to live comfortably is like getting to the edge of the beach. Moving further up the beach a bit is nice but you certainly won't be willing to break your back to get there. It's not only diminishing returns at work but simply crossing that comfort threshold severely drops the incentives from "survival mode" to "eh... yeah... maybe". And sure, if you like living just above your means you'll always be in "survival mode". Always the better car, the better house, the better vacation, they need to be financed and every little bit will count. I think that's not where most people are.
ido 5y ago
There is literally an IT workers union in Austria (when we lived there every job came with a minimum pay based on Kollektivvertrag for the role - you could get more than the minimum of course).

fnord123 5y ago

> specially compared to the US where quite some companies will match our European amenities (talking about software engineering jobs). Debatable. In most European countries, if you lose your job you still have health cover. If you lose your job in the US you do not keep the company benefit health insurance (except as part of a severance package for a limited time). For H1-B visa holders, they must leave the country (this is relevant for anyone based in Europe who is trying to determine whether to stay in Europe or use a visa programme to relocate to the US).

wreath 5y ago
Depends where in Europe. In Germany, if you lose your job you still have to pay for health insurance, at least the first three months until your unemployment kicks in (assuming you're eligible for it, like in most cases) and I don't know if unemployment covers your health insurance. If you are married and you and your spouse were on the same statutory health insurance, then you're covered by your spouse. Which can be the case in the US depending on your spouse's coverage.
- jyounker 5y ago
  Once you are unemployed you do have to pay for your health insurance, but it's heavily subsidized, costing (as a 50 year old) around 200 a month. Compare that to 1200 per month in the USA. It's a huge difference.
  - wreath 5y ago
    It's a huge difference when you compare absolute numbers for sure. But also there is a huge difference in taxes. You could argue 1200 is not so bad when you pay 25% taxes instead of 40% for example.
    - remram 5y ago
      You don't pay income taxes when unemployed.
      - wreath 5y ago
        That's not what I meant. When you are employed in tech and pay say 25% taxes, saving 1200 for a bad day (when you are unemployed and have to pay insurance yourself) is not so bad compared to when you pay 40 taxes.
        remram 5y ago
        You've gone full circle then. Someone was pointing out that salaries are lower in Europe, someone else replied that on the other hand costs are lower (for example health insurance). To which you reply that it's fine because salary are lower.
  - _rtld_global_ro 5y ago
    Get ACA, should be a lot lower than $1200/month if AGI isn't really high (assuming unemployed), now if you want CORBA that could be a different story.
  - jandrewrogers 5y ago
bluGill 5y ago
But it isn't hard to find a job, and there are other options for health care while you are looking. I agree that it is stupid to tie health insurance to your job, but it isn't the big deal you make it out to be, so long as you have savings
- alistairSH 5y ago
  so long as you have savings That phrase is key. Most Americans don’t have savings. Even among the professional class, savings are often nowhere near high enough to pay OOP for insurance at market rate.
- fnord123 5y ago
  I'm not an expert in american insurance policies (not even a novice, tbh) but if you have an ongoing condition and then lose insurance, and then get new insurance with your easy-to-get new job then would the ongoing condition be considered a pre-existing condition and hence fall into question regarding cover?
  - ryan93 5y ago
    Not since 2009
- _hcuq 5y ago
  As a 55 yr old with 3 dependents, the insurance is $25,000 per year. That’s quite a hill to climb before I see a penny of income into my pocket.
literallycancer 5y ago
What's stopping you from choosing and paying for your own health insurance in the US?

Joeri 5y ago

What you do get (speaking here from my experience in Belgium) is that the top of the wage scale is invisible because past a certain tier everyone works as a consultant to avoid the high taxes. It is not unusual in senior tech roles to charge 1K+ per day or 20K+ per month, and pay a lower effective tax rate on that income, while having long term engagements with the same companies so that little time is lost to churn.

codethief 5y ago
> everyone works as a consultant to avoid the high taxes You mean, to avoid the social security fees (health/pension/unemployment/…)? After all, as a consultant (whether incorporated or not) you still need to pay taxes and the rates are pretty similar to tax rates for employees.
- Joeri 5y ago
  The people that I know that are self-employed and earning high incomes generally are incorporated and have an accountant to set up tax avoidance strategies to have a lower effective tax rate. Effective tax rates seem to follow a gauss curve, low at the bottom, low at the top, highest for the middle earners.
  - distances 5y ago
    That'll vary by country and won't be efficient everywhere in Europe. Certainly in Germany freelancers pay the same taxes as regular employees, and setting up a company means more taxes, not less.

buran77 5y ago

A salary is like RAM, you only notice if it's too little. Once you reach this comfort level where you can cover your expenses and feed your lifestyle without having to think too much about it, getting some extra will make far less impact than the number might suggest. Not having enough money is like drowning and you'd do anything for a breath of air. Having just enough to live comfortably is like getting to the edge of the beach. Moving further up the beach a bit is nice but you certainly won't be willing to break your back to get there. It's not only diminishing returns at work but simply crossing that comfort threshold severely drops the incentives from "survival mode" to "eh... yeah... maybe". And sure, if you like living just above your means you'll always be in "survival mode". Always the better car, the better house, the better vacation, they need to be financed and every little bit will count. I think that's not where most people are.

ido 5y ago

There is literally an IT workers union in Austria (when we lived there every job came with a minimum pay based on Kollektivvertrag for the role - you could get more than the minimum of course).