9 ms·

Dunno where you live but in Belgium: - That salary certainly does seem realistic, even though I'm on the higher end and have a base salary above that; - I als

by gdcbe 5y ago

Dunno where you live but in Belgium: - That salary certainly does seem realistic, even though I'm on the higher end and have a base salary above that; - I also get the same amount of paid holidays, might be even a couple more; - we have great hospitality insurance, mutuality (general health care) has to be paid by ourselves however, even though that's cheap; - they do help me save for pension in the form of a contribution, but it certainly isn't enough to retire of, I see it more like a nice base, but will definitely need money on top of that to actually keep living a good live (at least if I want to stay in Belgium); - they are flexible in timing for sure, that is something I'm grateful for, as long as I get the work done it's cool; - they do not expect work in the weekends or after office hours (if you do flexible hours it's of course up to you to do the promised hours at some point or another of course); However, never ever: - have I get overtime paid, in any of the companies I worked for in Belgium or the UK; - have I get the chance to be in some kind of union that's standardised within the companies I work for, haven't even heard ever of a union for software developers; Further more I'm always been told that despite the fact that they earn their 200k salaries they on top of that get also nice bonuses, options on stocks, 4k pension saving and premium health insurance covered. Or is that too much rainbows and unicorns I heard of?

danbmil99 5y ago
Not rainbows -- FAANG are out-bidding startups at every level. If you have a modicum of talent and a flair for interviews, they will gladly buy your soul for $250k/year + bennies from heaven.
- Hydraulix989 5y ago
  That's just the first year out of school pay. It goes up to mid six figures quickly once you get a promotion or two.
  - demosito666 5y ago
    Sorry for the flood, just a remark. As a devops engineer from Eastern Europe (with "senior" formal title) in a large international consultancy, these numbers sound like they are from another planet to me. $250k+/year to me sounds indistinguishable from $200000000000000000000/year.
    - alistairSH 5y ago
      FAANG employees, particularly on the West Coast, are an anomaly, even within the US. People also often include stock grants in listed comp, so be sure your comparing apples to apples. DC/Mid-Atlantic salaries at an established (non-FAANG) company are more like $85-$100k for a recent grad, $130-$170 for senior developer positions. Most of those jobs are in the suburbs, where a nice house is in the $500-$1million range.
      - claytonjy 5y ago
        Important to note that "senior dev" here means title, not actual seniority, e.g. ~5 yrs experience gets you in that range even at an early-stage startup in the Midwest.
        alistairSH 5y ago
        Correct. At my employer, Senior Developer is the 3rd (of 6) title in the developer hierarchy. Also the first where promotion upwards isn't mostly automatic. Though the comp ranges for Senior and up have a lot of overlap between levels - to earn beyond 150ish, you'll have to be really good, regardless of title. A Senior Dev would be expected to operate mostly independently on day-to-day tasks, capable of contributing back to their immediate team (mentoring, working with product manager, etc), work directly with customers and leadership as needed, and be recognized as somebody with answers to problems within their immediate area.
        claytonjy 5y ago
        > Also the first where promotion upwards isn't mostly automatic In such cases is it still considered the terminal title, the one you either earn or are pushed out for not earning, but are not required to go beyond?
        alistairSH 5y ago
        Pretty much. We don't have codified up-or-out rules. I don't see many truly terminal Senior Devs, but have seen people "hang out" in that role for many years. Same thing for Lead Dev, which is one title more senior. Assoc to Senior or Lead - being successful at normal tasks over time gets you there without much active career management. Senior to Principal - you'll have to seek out interesting work, prove capable of working across product/business or technical boundaries, and start interacting with leaders outside you team. Senior Principal - all of above, plus interacting regularly with VP, leaders in Product Management group, capable of high level design/analysis, trusted by peers and leaders across your organization. High level of ability mentoring and leading.
- gdcbe 5y ago
  I see, so while not rainbows it does come with the fact that you're expected to be a slave on location for 24/7? So if I understand it correctly it is only rainbows if you wish to combine that with a family life and without having to move to us?
  - Anderkent 5y ago
    > while not rainbows it does come with the fact that you're expected to be a slave on location for 24/7? Not at all. You're expected to be productive to a certain standard (and even that is sometimes iffy), not to be 24/7 available.
- weatherlite 5y ago
  Hmm a modicum of talent? It's pretty hard to get in. Doesn't necessarily take talent but it sure helps. Either that or the willingness and ability to grind out so many interviews you actually become good at it. Whatever the case not everyone is capable or event want to go through with it. And its not as if FAANG are a good representation of the industry, maybe 5% of devs work there?
sethherr 5y ago
It’s very expected to get options, pensions (401k matching) and premium health insurance.
pjmlp 5y ago
Basically DACH region.
menaerus 5y ago
You haven't. That's the sad reality for devs living in the EU (or elsewhere but not in the States). 200k is also a bit generous, senior engineers that are specialized in <xyz> tech do earn much much more than that, anywhere from 2x to 5x. Yes, 5x that amount for an engineer. I didn't believe this myself but that's really how it is. However, given that more and more companies are becoming more open to WFH setting, it will hopefully make the things better for the devs outside the States.
- ca01an 5y ago
  What tech do you have to specialize in to get $1 million a year?
  - menaerus 5y ago
    Big-data, AI, HFT ... Basically anything that has been and is a hot topic and which generates a lot of revenue. But I am clearly not thinking of an average Joe level of expertise. It requires to have all around the stack skills including the ability to grasp the big picture of the product and drive it forward. Technical skills wise, for areas from above, you'd usually be looking at the strong background in algorithms, math & statistics, internals of operating systems, underlying hardware but mostly about the CPU at the microarchitectural level and strong expertise in at least one programming language.
snakke 5y ago
In general in Belgium if you work overtime that time is then alloted to "inhaalrust" up to a certain point (you're never able to work more then 11h/day or 50h/week). Only if you have like a specific agreement where you work "voluntary" overtime, which is not counted towards inhaalrust, but is the standard 50% extra or 100% extra on sundays/holidays. More info can basically be found on https://werk.belgie.be/nl/themas/werkbaar-en-wendbaar-werk/arbeidsduur/vrijwillige-overuren https://werk.belgie.be/nl/themas/werkbaar-en-wendbaar-werk/a... (also available in French). As for unions, normally if a company reaches 50 employees they are required by law to have a union rep. How exactly that works I don't know. Also while I personally also have never heard of a software specific union, you can always just go with the big normal unions if you want, it's not like they're going to turn you away.
Symbiote 5y ago
> haven't even heard ever of a union for software developers Now you have: https://prospect.org.uk/tech-workers/ https://prospect.org.uk/tech-workers/ or https://www.unitetheunion.org/ https://www.unitetheunion.org/ in the UK. I had colleagues in both at a previous job, depending whether their jobs were more scientific (we'd call it data science now) or engineering. Both unions are more general than just software/IT.

by gdcbe 5y ago

danbmil99 5y ago

Not rainbows -- FAANG are out-bidding startups at every level. If you have a modicum of talent and a flair for interviews, they will gladly buy your soul for $250k/year + bennies from heaven.

Hydraulix989 5y ago
That's just the first year out of school pay. It goes up to mid six figures quickly once you get a promotion or two.
- demosito666 5y ago
  Sorry for the flood, just a remark. As a devops engineer from Eastern Europe (with "senior" formal title) in a large international consultancy, these numbers sound like they are from another planet to me. $250k+/year to me sounds indistinguishable from $200000000000000000000/year.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    FAANG employees, particularly on the West Coast, are an anomaly, even within the US. People also often include stock grants in listed comp, so be sure your comparing apples to apples. DC/Mid-Atlantic salaries at an established (non-FAANG) company are more like $85-$100k for a recent grad, $130-$170 for senior developer positions. Most of those jobs are in the suburbs, where a nice house is in the $500-$1million range.
    - claytonjy 5y ago
      Important to note that "senior dev" here means title, not actual seniority, e.g. ~5 yrs experience gets you in that range even at an early-stage startup in the Midwest.
      - alistairSH 5y ago
        Correct. At my employer, Senior Developer is the 3rd (of 6) title in the developer hierarchy. Also the first where promotion upwards isn't mostly automatic. Though the comp ranges for Senior and up have a lot of overlap between levels - to earn beyond 150ish, you'll have to be really good, regardless of title. A Senior Dev would be expected to operate mostly independently on day-to-day tasks, capable of contributing back to their immediate team (mentoring, working with product manager, etc), work directly with customers and leadership as needed, and be recognized as somebody with answers to problems within their immediate area.
        claytonjy 5y ago
        > Also the first where promotion upwards isn't mostly automatic In such cases is it still considered the terminal title, the one you either earn or are pushed out for not earning, but are not required to go beyond?
        alistairSH 5y ago
        Pretty much. We don't have codified up-or-out rules. I don't see many truly terminal Senior Devs, but have seen people "hang out" in that role for many years. Same thing for Lead Dev, which is one title more senior. Assoc to Senior or Lead - being successful at normal tasks over time gets you there without much active career management. Senior to Principal - you'll have to seek out interesting work, prove capable of working across product/business or technical boundaries, and start interacting with leaders outside you team. Senior Principal - all of above, plus interacting regularly with VP, leaders in Product Management group, capable of high level design/analysis, trusted by peers and leaders across your organization. High level of ability mentoring and leading.
gdcbe 5y ago
I see, so while not rainbows it does come with the fact that you're expected to be a slave on location for 24/7? So if I understand it correctly it is only rainbows if you wish to combine that with a family life and without having to move to us?
- Anderkent 5y ago
  > while not rainbows it does come with the fact that you're expected to be a slave on location for 24/7? Not at all. You're expected to be productive to a certain standard (and even that is sometimes iffy), not to be 24/7 available.
weatherlite 5y ago
Hmm a modicum of talent? It's pretty hard to get in. Doesn't necessarily take talent but it sure helps. Either that or the willingness and ability to grind out so many interviews you actually become good at it. Whatever the case not everyone is capable or event want to go through with it. And its not as if FAANG are a good representation of the industry, maybe 5% of devs work there?

sethherr 5y ago

It’s very expected to get options, pensions (401k matching) and premium health insurance.

pjmlp 5y ago

Basically DACH region.

menaerus 5y ago

You haven't. That's the sad reality for devs living in the EU (or elsewhere but not in the States). 200k is also a bit generous, senior engineers that are specialized in <xyz> tech do earn much much more than that, anywhere from 2x to 5x. Yes, 5x that amount for an engineer. I didn't believe this myself but that's really how it is. However, given that more and more companies are becoming more open to WFH setting, it will hopefully make the things better for the devs outside the States.

ca01an 5y ago
What tech do you have to specialize in to get $1 million a year?
- menaerus 5y ago
  Big-data, AI, HFT ... Basically anything that has been and is a hot topic and which generates a lot of revenue. But I am clearly not thinking of an average Joe level of expertise. It requires to have all around the stack skills including the ability to grasp the big picture of the product and drive it forward. Technical skills wise, for areas from above, you'd usually be looking at the strong background in algorithms, math & statistics, internals of operating systems, underlying hardware but mostly about the CPU at the microarchitectural level and strong expertise in at least one programming language.

snakke 5y ago

In general in Belgium if you work overtime that time is then alloted to "inhaalrust" up to a certain point (you're never able to work more then 11h/day or 50h/week). Only if you have like a specific agreement where you work "voluntary" overtime, which is not counted towards inhaalrust, but is the standard 50% extra or 100% extra on sundays/holidays. More info can basically be found on https://werk.belgie.be/nl/themas/werkbaar-en-wendbaar-werk/arbeidsduur/vrijwillige-overuren https://werk.belgie.be/nl/themas/werkbaar-en-wendbaar-werk/a... (also available in French). As for unions, normally if a company reaches 50 employees they are required by law to have a union rep. How exactly that works I don't know. Also while I personally also have never heard of a software specific union, you can always just go with the big normal unions if you want, it's not like they're going to turn you away.

Symbiote 5y ago

> haven't even heard ever of a union for software developers Now you have: https://prospect.org.uk/tech-workers/ https://prospect.org.uk/tech-workers/ or https://www.unitetheunion.org/ https://www.unitetheunion.org/ in the UK. I had colleagues in both at a previous job, depending whether their jobs were more scientific (we'd call it data science now) or engineering. Both unions are more general than just software/IT.