5 ms·

Those externalities are minor compared to the massive utility we derive from being able to travel point to point at high speeds on our own schedule. In my opini

Those externalities are minor compared to the massive utility we derive from being able to travel point to point at high speeds on our own schedule. In my opinion the reverse of what you say is true - it is fashionable for urbanists to claim these externalities are big when it is clear the time saved across the hundreds of millions who drive in the US alone is much larger in magnitude. The numbers you quote aren’t very meaningful without context. For example, 38000 road deaths doesn’t seem like much when you consider that there is only ~1 death for every 100 million vehicle miles traveled - and that number is going to keep falling as safety tech becomes more standardized. I also simply can’t take a claim like “city designs that are absolutely unlivable” seriously. Plenty of people live and thrive in car centric cities just fine, so this is clearly hyperbole.

wilgertvelinga 5y ago
It is actually possible to be able to travel point to point on your own schedule in the same small amount of time without all those externalities. See Dutch cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam. Where everything is a bike ride away.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  As someone who has spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, this is simply not true. “Everything” is not a bike ride away. You’re equating a severely limited life to one with a lot more access and freedom to chose from more than what is just immediately nearby. It’s simply not the same thing. I’m glad for the people who are content with such a set up, but it’s not for everyone. For me, I found Amsterdam tremendously boring after a short time because of the relatively limited choice of activities compared to a car-centric US cities where intraday travel over longer distances is trivial. I would also say that the claim that you can travel in the “same small amount of time” is factually incorrect for other reasons. A one mile bike ride is simply not going to be faster than a 1 mile drive unless you’re in a city where they have overbuilt or have tremendously lagging driving infrastructure. I can only see the two being approximately the same for very short trips.
  - saberience 5y ago
    - throwawaysea 5y ago
      You’re constructing a straw man and arguing against it. I didn’t find Amsterdam boring because I couldn’t drive around. I found it boring because there was a limited set of repetitive things I could conveniently access. I found it pleasant, but also homogeneous and plain. There is greater variety to be had in most American cities, simply because you can access more neighborhoods, businesses, amenities, whatever in a short amount of time on your own terms. If you have to deal with public transit (slower speeds, wait times, changing lines, etc) then any such activity simply requires more time and makes it less likely you’ll do it. You end up living a less rich life as a result. All that said, I appreciated the intercity trains.
      - llampx 5y ago
        There is absolutely no way I can agree with this comment or sentiment, as someone who has lived in both the US and in Europe. The US invented and perfected homogeneous city landscapes. Everywhere you go, the same buildings and the same chains dot the landscape. Great if you want to go to McDonald's and Walmart, but very very homogeneous. Europe is not like that at all. I think it has to do with your familiarity with the place if you think everywhere in Europe is the same.
    - llampx 5y ago
      Not only that, but using the subway to move across the city is objectively faster than a car, and the balance only starts shifting to the car when your destination is outside the city and requires more than 3-4 changes.
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        I often find public transit still pretty bad. It seems to be mostly designed on hub-spoke model. Which means that very often when you want to travel circularly you might need to spend hour to travel to hub and then hour back. While with car you could go directly...
- chongli 5y ago
  The Netherlands is the flattest country in the world. Of course bicycles are convenient there. Try biking around San Francisco where there are ski-jump sized hills everywhere.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    The Netherlands are quite windy, but both wind and hills are negated by electric bicycles.

wilgertvelinga 5y ago

It is actually possible to be able to travel point to point on your own schedule in the same small amount of time without all those externalities. See Dutch cities like Utrecht and Amsterdam. Where everything is a bike ride away.

throwawaysea 5y ago
As someone who has spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, this is simply not true. “Everything” is not a bike ride away. You’re equating a severely limited life to one with a lot more access and freedom to chose from more than what is just immediately nearby. It’s simply not the same thing. I’m glad for the people who are content with such a set up, but it’s not for everyone. For me, I found Amsterdam tremendously boring after a short time because of the relatively limited choice of activities compared to a car-centric US cities where intraday travel over longer distances is trivial. I would also say that the claim that you can travel in the “same small amount of time” is factually incorrect for other reasons. A one mile bike ride is simply not going to be faster than a 1 mile drive unless you’re in a city where they have overbuilt or have tremendously lagging driving infrastructure. I can only see the two being approximately the same for very short trips.
- saberience 5y ago
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    You’re constructing a straw man and arguing against it. I didn’t find Amsterdam boring because I couldn’t drive around. I found it boring because there was a limited set of repetitive things I could conveniently access. I found it pleasant, but also homogeneous and plain. There is greater variety to be had in most American cities, simply because you can access more neighborhoods, businesses, amenities, whatever in a short amount of time on your own terms. If you have to deal with public transit (slower speeds, wait times, changing lines, etc) then any such activity simply requires more time and makes it less likely you’ll do it. You end up living a less rich life as a result. All that said, I appreciated the intercity trains.
    - llampx 5y ago
      There is absolutely no way I can agree with this comment or sentiment, as someone who has lived in both the US and in Europe. The US invented and perfected homogeneous city landscapes. Everywhere you go, the same buildings and the same chains dot the landscape. Great if you want to go to McDonald's and Walmart, but very very homogeneous. Europe is not like that at all. I think it has to do with your familiarity with the place if you think everywhere in Europe is the same.
  - llampx 5y ago
    Not only that, but using the subway to move across the city is objectively faster than a car, and the balance only starts shifting to the car when your destination is outside the city and requires more than 3-4 changes.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      I often find public transit still pretty bad. It seems to be mostly designed on hub-spoke model. Which means that very often when you want to travel circularly you might need to spend hour to travel to hub and then hour back. While with car you could go directly...
chongli 5y ago
The Netherlands is the flattest country in the world. Of course bicycles are convenient there. Try biking around San Francisco where there are ski-jump sized hills everywhere.
- adrianN 5y ago
  The Netherlands are quite windy, but both wind and hills are negated by electric bicycles.