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The interesting thing is that this is literally how all governments originally emerged. The strongest local gang establishes a monopoly on violence in their te

The interesting thing is that this is literally how all governments originally emerged. The strongest local gang establishes a monopoly on violence in their territory. They then extract tribute (taxes) from the local population in various ways. If they get too greedy and extract too much, then eventually the plebs have little enough to lose to break their established order and fight the establishment gang. The most competent gangs find the equilibrium of taxation that is the maximum they can extract without suffocating production and innovation or creating an opposing revolution. So, in locations where this has happened in modern states, it simply demonstrates that the "official" police and state have failed to manage their monopoly on violence properly, and are being actively out competed by a more effective organization that, if it continues to sustainably control its territory, will eventually become recognized as the new legitimate state.

xchaotic 5y ago
This is very true and it paints a dim view on the XXI century- we are going to be ruled by thugs and gangsters because we “vote” them in, until it’s too late.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Democracy only works well if serving the people and giving them a strong voice and control accrues more power to the state than alternative forms of governance. If the people, or more specifically the democratic majority, end up becoming more extractive than they are productive towards enhancing their state's power, then eventually some alternative organizing governance structure will emerge that accumulates power more effectively. This isn't making an ethical judgement about one system or another, just an observation on what appears to be base level reality.
vanusa 5y ago
The interesting thing is that this is literally how all governments originally emerged. No - there are also revolutions and secessionist movements. Which already in their formation can be better thought of as mini-governments than "gangs" per se. The basic problem with the idea of saying "it all started from gang rule" is that it brings to mind an image of criminal networks that just happened to fall into government-like activities (e.g. muscling out other gangs, running basic services) as a way of staying in business. Certainly true in some cases, but in most cases ... not a particularly meaningful description.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Our history books tend to glorify ancient gangs and call them things like "nobles" and "royalty". But if you look beneath the veneer, they were gangs very much like the street gangs and crime organizations we have now. History is written by the victors.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    Actually it's written by anthropologists. If you look at how our species came to self-organize, there has always been a strong component of innate, voluntary cooperation (and of course violent subjugation as well). It's a mixed bag for sure, but I just think your characterization is way too oversimplified -- and it probably wouldn't get too far you tried to pass it by people who have devoted their lives to studying these things.
    - anonporridge 5y ago
      Who pays the anthropologists? And what cultural biases do they infuse in their work? Modern gangs also sometimes organize via voluntary cooperation. Their ability to commit violence and control their territory is merely the foundation of their legitimacy in any non violent agreement. Same foundation as all "official" governments.
      - vanusa 5y ago
        Who pays the anthropologists? Yeah I guess they're all just paid shills, and have no idea of what they're talking about.
        JetAlone 5y ago
        I think the poster above is suggesting something much more nuanced than that. I think they're trying to say that the anthropologists do know what they research, to the best of their abilities. However, I think they're suggesting that anthropology projects are less likely to get funding if the likely reported results would heavily suggest theories that are ultimately critical of whichever seated establishment funded them in the first place. Think about it this way - would you be willing to pay me 5% of your pay for this month to have me generate a report of your productivity, if you already knew I was highly likely to send a result that suggests your boss might want to fire you? If you were expected to pay me to do such a report for some reason, I think you'd prefer to pay me to report on someone else's productivity instead.
phront 5y ago
I read somewhere that governments rose from theater troupes
- legerdemain 5y ago
  The current Ukrainian government arose from a bunch of clowns and jokers!
usrusr 5y ago
"They then extract tribute (taxes) from the local population in various ways." And in modern observations, if they emerged out of drug dealing, there's even the possibility (though that's certainly not a given) that they never diversify into tribute/protection, while still providing order. It would be the exact same thing as the "we done do drugs!" ethics portrayed in The Goodfather, only reversed. I wouldn't even consider that all too unlikely, because violent gangsters want to consider themselves as the good guys just like everyone else, and adhering to a code that rules out some forms of unethical behavior goes a long way for that.

xchaotic 5y ago

This is very true and it paints a dim view on the XXI century- we are going to be ruled by thugs and gangsters because we “vote” them in, until it’s too late.

anonporridge 5y ago
Democracy only works well if serving the people and giving them a strong voice and control accrues more power to the state than alternative forms of governance. If the people, or more specifically the democratic majority, end up becoming more extractive than they are productive towards enhancing their state's power, then eventually some alternative organizing governance structure will emerge that accumulates power more effectively. This isn't making an ethical judgement about one system or another, just an observation on what appears to be base level reality.

vanusa 5y ago

The interesting thing is that this is literally how all governments originally emerged. No - there are also revolutions and secessionist movements. Which already in their formation can be better thought of as mini-governments than "gangs" per se. The basic problem with the idea of saying "it all started from gang rule" is that it brings to mind an image of criminal networks that just happened to fall into government-like activities (e.g. muscling out other gangs, running basic services) as a way of staying in business. Certainly true in some cases, but in most cases ... not a particularly meaningful description.

anonporridge 5y ago
Our history books tend to glorify ancient gangs and call them things like "nobles" and "royalty". But if you look beneath the veneer, they were gangs very much like the street gangs and crime organizations we have now. History is written by the victors.
- vanusa 5y ago
  Actually it's written by anthropologists. If you look at how our species came to self-organize, there has always been a strong component of innate, voluntary cooperation (and of course violent subjugation as well). It's a mixed bag for sure, but I just think your characterization is way too oversimplified -- and it probably wouldn't get too far you tried to pass it by people who have devoted their lives to studying these things.
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    Who pays the anthropologists? And what cultural biases do they infuse in their work? Modern gangs also sometimes organize via voluntary cooperation. Their ability to commit violence and control their territory is merely the foundation of their legitimacy in any non violent agreement. Same foundation as all "official" governments.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      Who pays the anthropologists? Yeah I guess they're all just paid shills, and have no idea of what they're talking about.
      - JetAlone 5y ago
        I think the poster above is suggesting something much more nuanced than that. I think they're trying to say that the anthropologists do know what they research, to the best of their abilities. However, I think they're suggesting that anthropology projects are less likely to get funding if the likely reported results would heavily suggest theories that are ultimately critical of whichever seated establishment funded them in the first place. Think about it this way - would you be willing to pay me 5% of your pay for this month to have me generate a report of your productivity, if you already knew I was highly likely to send a result that suggests your boss might want to fire you? If you were expected to pay me to do such a report for some reason, I think you'd prefer to pay me to report on someone else's productivity instead.

phront 5y ago

I read somewhere that governments rose from theater troupes

legerdemain 5y ago
The current Ukrainian government arose from a bunch of clowns and jokers!

usrusr 5y ago

"They then extract tribute (taxes) from the local population in various ways." And in modern observations, if they emerged out of drug dealing, there's even the possibility (though that's certainly not a given) that they never diversify into tribute/protection, while still providing order. It would be the exact same thing as the "we done do drugs!" ethics portrayed in The Goodfather, only reversed. I wouldn't even consider that all too unlikely, because violent gangsters want to consider themselves as the good guys just like everyone else, and adhering to a code that rules out some forms of unethical behavior goes a long way for that.