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Don't know much about Rio, but what I have seen and heard elsewhere in Latin America over the years. Often times organized crimes substitutes an absent governm
by smoe 5y ago
Don't know much about Rio, but what I have seen and heard elsewhere in Latin America over the years.
Often times organized crimes substitutes an absent government and enforce their own set of law and order in the community. They can't afford to just rob the people blind as sometimes portrayed in media. They rely on a somewhat sybmiotic relationship with the "citizens" to act as messengers, human surveillance cameras, warning them from unknown people entering, making false statements to the police etc. The gangs are often much more effective at crime prevention than the government, they often invest more locally than the government.
A big chunk of the violet crimes comes from conflicts between gangs. If you are part of the community and stay in line you can actually be pretty safe. As a tourist on the other hand, you are fair game.
Obviously, it is not everything is rosy and nice, but in my opinion one of the big challenges in facing organized crime, is that the governments don't actually have a believable improvement to offer to the people, so the locals will often defend the current situation.
- cpach 5y agoI guess that’s how it has also been in parts of Italy (and maybe still is, to some extent…?)
- 4ggr0 5y agoI mean, the dynamic of people acting as watchdogs and the community bundling together can be noticed in a lot of villages over the world, I think. Of course, the special thing about the Favelas and Mafia-controlled areas is the violence and fear. But that's just a speculation from me.
- anonporridge 5y agoThe interesting thing is that this is literally how all governments originally emerged. The strongest local gang establishes a monopoly on violence in their territory. They then extract tribute (taxes) from the local population in various ways. If they get too greedy and extract too much, then eventually the plebs have little enough to lose to break their established order and fight the establishment gang. The most competent gangs find the equilibrium of taxation that is the maximum they can extract without suffocating production and innovation or creating an opposing revolution. So, in locations where this has happened in modern states, it simply demonstrates that the "official" police and state have failed to manage their monopoly on violence properly, and are being actively out competed by a more effective organization that, if it continues to sustainably control its territory, will eventually become recognized as the new legitimate state.
- xchaotic 5y agoThis is very true and it paints a dim view on the XXI century- we are going to be ruled by thugs and gangsters because we “vote” them in, until it’s too late.
- anonporridge 5y agoDemocracy only works well if serving the people and giving them a strong voice and control accrues more power to the state than alternative forms of governance. If the people, or more specifically the democratic majority, end up becoming more extractive than they are productive towards enhancing their state's power, then eventually some alternative organizing governance structure will emerge that accumulates power more effectively. This isn't making an ethical judgement about one system or another, just an observation on what appears to be base level reality.
- vanusa 5y agoThe interesting thing is that this is literally how all governments originally emerged. No - there are also revolutions and secessionist movements. Which already in their formation can be better thought of as mini-governments than "gangs" per se. The basic problem with the idea of saying "it all started from gang rule" is that it brings to mind an image of criminal networks that just happened to fall into government-like activities (e.g. muscling out other gangs, running basic services) as a way of staying in business. Certainly true in some cases, but in most cases ... not a particularly meaningful description.
- anonporridge 5y agoOur history books tend to glorify ancient gangs and call them things like "nobles" and "royalty". But if you look beneath the veneer, they were gangs very much like the street gangs and crime organizations we have now. History is written by the victors.
- vanusa 5y agoActually it's written by anthropologists. If you look at how our species came to self-organize, there has always been a strong component of innate, voluntary cooperation (and of course violent subjugation as well). It's a mixed bag for sure, but I just think your characterization is way too oversimplified -- and it probably wouldn't get too far you tried to pass it by people who have devoted their lives to studying these things.
- andrepd 5y agoThis is a romanticised view that is not really true. Particularly this bit: >If you are part of the community and stay in line you can actually be pretty safe.
- kvgr 5y agoThe also do not want to get rich people mugged in favelas, because they go there to buy drugs. Bad for business.