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Several of the folks I've talked to who were most excited about Optane (and disappointed about its delayed introduction & market rejection) were interested prim

Several of the folks I've talked to who were most excited about Optane (and disappointed about its delayed introduction & market rejection) were interested primarily in the greater per-chip density, with persistence as at best a "nice-to-have". Take your typical in-memory database: The primary scalability constraint is how much "fast enough" memory you can park close to your CPU cores. Persistence lets you make some faster / broader failure & recovery guarantees, but if those are major application concerns, you probably wouldn't be using an in-memory database in the first place.

arghnoname 5y ago
That’s a good point. If I remember correctly, optane has a operating mode where the memory is only meant to be used as RAM. It’s stored on the non-volatile RAM in an encrypted form and the key is intentionally discarded/lost when rebooted. Another obvious operating mode is to make the NVRAM be the first line of swap and have things spill from DRAM into NVRAM when there is memory pressure. I think Intel also offered a mode like this, where it made everything look like DRAM and it would spill onto NVRAM as it needed to. Of course, this would be better rolled into the OS or application level so smarter decisions can be made, but given very high NVRAM densities it’s a great application for the technology.
ksec 5y ago
>and disappointed about its delayed introduction & market rejection Even at peak NAND and DRAM price ( at ~3x of normal ), where Optane had a slight chance of competing, Intel was still selling it at cost, with a volume that could not even fulfil their minimum purchase agreement with Micron. With a technical roadmap that doesn't fulfil their initial promise, and questionable cost reduction plan even at optimal volume. Compared that to DRAM ( DDR5 / DDR6 and HMB ) and NAND ( SLC / Z-NAND ), as much as I love the XPoint technology the cost benefits just didn't make any sense once DRAM and NAND falls back to normal pricing. Micron already know this all the way back in 2018, but the agreement with Intel kept them from writing it out clearly.
- petra 5y ago
  I'm curious: The promise of Optane has pushed Intel's stock upwards. Did it's rejection by the market pushed the stock downward in a similar amount ?
  - ksec 5y ago
    I honestly dont think that was ever the case, unless it was some mainstream media reporting. In reality Intel has been making record profits YOY for 4 or 5 years in a row. Mostly due to Datacenter revenue. Optane, or NAND / Storage business is a tiny segment on Intel's profits. Although the narrative that Optane will create a lock in on Server Sector certainly helped a tiny bit. But now the threat is coming from elsewhere.

arghnoname 5y ago

That’s a good point. If I remember correctly, optane has a operating mode where the memory is only meant to be used as RAM. It’s stored on the non-volatile RAM in an encrypted form and the key is intentionally discarded/lost when rebooted. Another obvious operating mode is to make the NVRAM be the first line of swap and have things spill from DRAM into NVRAM when there is memory pressure. I think Intel also offered a mode like this, where it made everything look like DRAM and it would spill onto NVRAM as it needed to. Of course, this would be better rolled into the OS or application level so smarter decisions can be made, but given very high NVRAM densities it’s a great application for the technology.

ksec 5y ago

>and disappointed about its delayed introduction & market rejection Even at peak NAND and DRAM price ( at ~3x of normal ), where Optane had a slight chance of competing, Intel was still selling it at cost, with a volume that could not even fulfil their minimum purchase agreement with Micron. With a technical roadmap that doesn't fulfil their initial promise, and questionable cost reduction plan even at optimal volume. Compared that to DRAM ( DDR5 / DDR6 and HMB ) and NAND ( SLC / Z-NAND ), as much as I love the XPoint technology the cost benefits just didn't make any sense once DRAM and NAND falls back to normal pricing. Micron already know this all the way back in 2018, but the agreement with Intel kept them from writing it out clearly.

petra 5y ago
I'm curious: The promise of Optane has pushed Intel's stock upwards. Did it's rejection by the market pushed the stock downward in a similar amount ?
- ksec 5y ago
  I honestly dont think that was ever the case, unless it was some mainstream media reporting. In reality Intel has been making record profits YOY for 4 or 5 years in a row. Mostly due to Datacenter revenue. Optane, or NAND / Storage business is a tiny segment on Intel's profits. Although the narrative that Optane will create a lock in on Server Sector certainly helped a tiny bit. But now the threat is coming from elsewhere.