5 ms·

This sort of system is used today in many modern industrial facilities. Case in point: Amazon warehouses. Lots of the mechanical automations inside some of tho

by mabbo 5y ago

This sort of system is used today in many modern industrial facilities. Case in point: Amazon warehouses. Lots of the mechanical automations inside some of those warehouses are powered by compressed air in open loop systems. As the conveyor pushes the item off, onto a different lane, there's a distinct hiss of air escaping. The movement of the machine was powered by compressed air. Out in the parking lot in these facilities, you'll see a huge compressed air tank (or many), constantly being refilled. Tubes from these go into the building like arteries in a body. Often inside the building there will be buffer tanks to help ensure constant pressure. Source: worked for a few years with guys who maintained these systems. Some of what I learned may be wrong, so feel free to correct me.

throw8932894 5y ago
It is pretty common in regular workshops. Compressed air powers drills, riveting machines, sprays guns, jack hammers... Tools powered by compressed air are simpler (no electronics), more durable and cheaper.
- mnahkies 5y ago
  My favourite thing about air tools was not having to worry about batteries (most electric hand tools I've used are battery only so no opportunity to use an extension lead like you use an air hose)
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    The motor also doesn't create sparks so they are more useful in flamable atmospheres.
  - grawprog 5y ago
    Most electric hand tools are usually available for cheaper in a corded variety. The only electric hand tool I haven't seen come corded are impact drivers and most impact drivers I've used will last a day or two using it 8 hours a day even off a 2aH battery. For me, I like air powered tools because of their power and reliability. They'll almost always have more torque and power than similar electric tools.
    - WheatM 5y ago
      Air tools defintely don't have more torque than electric tools, they rely on speed to overcome their shortcomings in torque. The main high torque application in air tools is in impact wrenches, which use very fast hammering action. Modern battery impact wrenches can match the performance of the best air wrenches.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        A top of the line M18 fuel impact (a $300 tool, before the $100 battery) is only equivalent with its air analog on the 1/365th of the year shop pressure runs at 90 because the OSHA guy is poking around and it's a heck of a lot bulkier. When you start getting into 3/4 and 1" it's not even a comparison. The cordless is nice to have but it's a luxury/convenience tool, not a replacement.
- bin_bash 5y ago
  You forgot the most important reason they're used: they're far more powerful!
bumby 5y ago
They aren't really the same types of systems. Pneumatic "muscle pressure" is common in lots of industrial applications, especially those that operate in austere environments. But those are different than the tech being researched in the article in large part because the mechanical compressors in industrial applications are hugely inefficient. Many constant volume compressors have 90%+ of the energy as waste heat. I believe the article is referencing isobaric (constant pressure) compressed air energy storage (CAES) that have much better efficiencies.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  How does this work? How can you compress air without raising the pressure? Are you sure you don't mean adiabatic?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryan_j_naughton 5y ago
    According to PV=nRT (ideal gas law), no you cannot in a closed system!!! But Hydrostor isn't violating any laws of physics -- they are simply capturing that heat so that it doesn't become waste heat! Hydrostor has a thermal management system that captures the heat and stores is during compression. Then it reuses the heat when it is decompressing the air.[1] This seem extremely promising as a much smaller footprint solution than pumped storage and much more sustainable and lower cost than any other energy storage solution. I just heard about them today, and I'm extremely impressed. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWjwwKSR78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWjwwKSR78
    - labawi 5y ago
      That doesn't seem isobaric. Searching if it's possible, I've seen mentions of condensing working fluids, and bumby mentions ocean floor bags which seem like a good solution.
  - bumby 5y ago
enginoor 5y ago
The common term is "pneumatics" and the components are prevalent in all automation and manufacturing. The air required is typically compressed on site. Pneumatic actuators are relatively inexpensive, have a binary state that is easy to control, and offer a high power density.
- laurent92 5y ago
  How do they avoid bacteria/mould from growing in tanks and flocking the pipes and releasing in the room? Do such systems ever get cleaned up?
  - HPsquared 5y ago
    The air in industrial pneumatic systems is filtered and dried, which would prevent these issues. Pneumatic systems often use small orifices and valves to control the air flow which would be quickly clogged by any debris, so cleanliness is important. An aside: PID control was, back in the day, mostly implemented in pneumatic control systems (using a set of levers, bellows springs and nozzles). Pneumatic control systems were (and still are) used a LOT in industrial control systems where e.g. flammable environments where electrical equipment is too much of a risk. https://control.com/textbook/closed-loop-control/pneumatic-pid-controllers/ https://control.com/textbook/closed-loop-control/pneumatic-p...
    - diarrhea 5y ago
      Mechanical, i.e. pneumatic, PID controllers were one of the most incredible things to learn about in university.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
RickJWagner 5y ago
I saw a similar thing in a very old building, I think from the early 1900s. The web of tubes was for messaging. (Just like some bank drive-ins work.) Users would put paper messages in capsules which were put into a pipe. Compressed air would carry the message to a central switching station, where human operators would re-route the message to the proper destination tube. It was pretty cool, in a steam-punk sort of way.

by mabbo 5y ago

throw8932894 5y ago

It is pretty common in regular workshops. Compressed air powers drills, riveting machines, sprays guns, jack hammers... Tools powered by compressed air are simpler (no electronics), more durable and cheaper.

mnahkies 5y ago
My favourite thing about air tools was not having to worry about batteries (most electric hand tools I've used are battery only so no opportunity to use an extension lead like you use an air hose)
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  The motor also doesn't create sparks so they are more useful in flamable atmospheres.
- grawprog 5y ago
  Most electric hand tools are usually available for cheaper in a corded variety. The only electric hand tool I haven't seen come corded are impact drivers and most impact drivers I've used will last a day or two using it 8 hours a day even off a 2aH battery. For me, I like air powered tools because of their power and reliability. They'll almost always have more torque and power than similar electric tools.
  - WheatM 5y ago
    Air tools defintely don't have more torque than electric tools, they rely on speed to overcome their shortcomings in torque. The main high torque application in air tools is in impact wrenches, which use very fast hammering action. Modern battery impact wrenches can match the performance of the best air wrenches.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      A top of the line M18 fuel impact (a $300 tool, before the $100 battery) is only equivalent with its air analog on the 1/365th of the year shop pressure runs at 90 because the OSHA guy is poking around and it's a heck of a lot bulkier. When you start getting into 3/4 and 1" it's not even a comparison. The cordless is nice to have but it's a luxury/convenience tool, not a replacement.
bin_bash 5y ago
You forgot the most important reason they're used: they're far more powerful!

bumby 5y ago

They aren't really the same types of systems. Pneumatic "muscle pressure" is common in lots of industrial applications, especially those that operate in austere environments. But those are different than the tech being researched in the article in large part because the mechanical compressors in industrial applications are hugely inefficient. Many constant volume compressors have 90%+ of the energy as waste heat. I believe the article is referencing isobaric (constant pressure) compressed air energy storage (CAES) that have much better efficiencies.

cinntaile 5y ago
How does this work? How can you compress air without raising the pressure? Are you sure you don't mean adiabatic?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ryan_j_naughton 5y ago
  According to PV=nRT (ideal gas law), no you cannot in a closed system!!! But Hydrostor isn't violating any laws of physics -- they are simply capturing that heat so that it doesn't become waste heat! Hydrostor has a thermal management system that captures the heat and stores is during compression. Then it reuses the heat when it is decompressing the air.[1] This seem extremely promising as a much smaller footprint solution than pumped storage and much more sustainable and lower cost than any other energy storage solution. I just heard about them today, and I'm extremely impressed. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWjwwKSR78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWjwwKSR78
  - labawi 5y ago
    That doesn't seem isobaric. Searching if it's possible, I've seen mentions of condensing working fluids, and bumby mentions ocean floor bags which seem like a good solution.
- bumby 5y ago

enginoor 5y ago

The common term is "pneumatics" and the components are prevalent in all automation and manufacturing. The air required is typically compressed on site. Pneumatic actuators are relatively inexpensive, have a binary state that is easy to control, and offer a high power density.

laurent92 5y ago
How do they avoid bacteria/mould from growing in tanks and flocking the pipes and releasing in the room? Do such systems ever get cleaned up?
- HPsquared 5y ago
  The air in industrial pneumatic systems is filtered and dried, which would prevent these issues. Pneumatic systems often use small orifices and valves to control the air flow which would be quickly clogged by any debris, so cleanliness is important. An aside: PID control was, back in the day, mostly implemented in pneumatic control systems (using a set of levers, bellows springs and nozzles). Pneumatic control systems were (and still are) used a LOT in industrial control systems where e.g. flammable environments where electrical equipment is too much of a risk. https://control.com/textbook/closed-loop-control/pneumatic-pid-controllers/ https://control.com/textbook/closed-loop-control/pneumatic-p...
  - diarrhea 5y ago
    Mechanical, i.e. pneumatic, PID controllers were one of the most incredible things to learn about in university.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

RickJWagner 5y ago

I saw a similar thing in a very old building, I think from the early 1900s. The web of tubes was for messaging. (Just like some bank drive-ins work.) Users would put paper messages in capsules which were put into a pipe. Compressed air would carry the message to a central switching station, where human operators would re-route the message to the proper destination tube. It was pretty cool, in a steam-punk sort of way.