5 ms·

I take it you work 7 days a week, no vacation, no lunch break, in incredibly unsafe conditions? No? Do you consider the fact that very few people have working

by freen 5y ago

I take it you work 7 days a week, no vacation, no lunch break, in incredibly unsafe conditions? No? Do you consider the fact that very few people have working conditions like those outlined above an enormously valuable thing for society? Great. Then you agree that Unions have created enormous amounts of value as well.

Jensson 5y ago
Those were thanks to labor movements, not unions. They are not the same thing, labor movements happens thanks to Democracy. Democracy is crucial, I agree, it lets groups organize, protest and fix problems with how society works. But what we call unions today are not that. I'm all for labor engaging in politics, but they can do that without paying union dues for working at a company. The problem USA's workers face today isn't lack of unions, it is lack of proper representation in their democracy.
- DetroitThrow 5y ago
  >Those were thanks to labor movements, not unions. Ahahaha, do you also think that voting rights and anti-segregation laws were due to the 'civil rights movement', and not civil rights activists such as MLK jr or civil rights organizations such as the NAACP?
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Labor movements are made up of people, yes. Not sure how that is related to unions. Labor organized in every single democracy regardless if there were unions or not. Labor movements tend to create unions, so unions are often a result of labor movements and not the source of labor movements.
    - DetroitThrow 5y ago
      >Labor movements are made up of people, yes. And so if the people in these movements made smaller organizations to advance the goals of the movement at their workplace, in their local communities, and the national level... we might even credit those organizations, yes? Just like we do with the civil rights movement? >Labor organized in every single democracy regardless if there were unions or not. Some economies skipped steam power too, but every early industrial economy had labor unions predate modern labor standards.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        Not a single one of those unions had legal backing though, they were just political movements and people working together. Not sure why you say they have anything to do with the theatre that are modern unions. Rather the concept of modern unions limits worker power, since it created a lot of laws preventing workers to organize as they wish and instead have to fit the very narrow framework that are modern unions. Workers had more power back then when they were free to organize without the limitations of modern unions. For example, why even have a vote? Why have enforced term limits for unions that you can't kick them out before the limit is up? Why no bargaining as a group without a vote?
        freen 5y ago
        Organizations have bylaws largely because without them, chaos reigns. A movement that hopes to continue must become an organization, that is, a collection of humans who agree to engage with each other according to an agreed upon set of rules. Your whole “movement != union” is a distinction without a difference.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  To claim that labor movements are somehow divorced from unions is ahistorical. > what we call unions today are not that. Unions don't involve organizing, protesting, or fixing problems? How do you think unions ever get a contract? Your comment makes frustratingly little sense to me.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Socialist movements which pushed for workers rights in Europe are more based on Marx than unions. Most modern worker parties has their roots there, but of course some of the more extreme socialist policies has been dropped in favor of capitalism.

by freen 5y ago

Jensson 5y ago

Those were thanks to labor movements, not unions. They are not the same thing, labor movements happens thanks to Democracy. Democracy is crucial, I agree, it lets groups organize, protest and fix problems with how society works. But what we call unions today are not that. I'm all for labor engaging in politics, but they can do that without paying union dues for working at a company. The problem USA's workers face today isn't lack of unions, it is lack of proper representation in their democracy.

DetroitThrow 5y ago
>Those were thanks to labor movements, not unions. Ahahaha, do you also think that voting rights and anti-segregation laws were due to the 'civil rights movement', and not civil rights activists such as MLK jr or civil rights organizations such as the NAACP?
- Jensson 5y ago
  Labor movements are made up of people, yes. Not sure how that is related to unions. Labor organized in every single democracy regardless if there were unions or not. Labor movements tend to create unions, so unions are often a result of labor movements and not the source of labor movements.
  - DetroitThrow 5y ago
    >Labor movements are made up of people, yes. And so if the people in these movements made smaller organizations to advance the goals of the movement at their workplace, in their local communities, and the national level... we might even credit those organizations, yes? Just like we do with the civil rights movement? >Labor organized in every single democracy regardless if there were unions or not. Some economies skipped steam power too, but every early industrial economy had labor unions predate modern labor standards.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      Not a single one of those unions had legal backing though, they were just political movements and people working together. Not sure why you say they have anything to do with the theatre that are modern unions. Rather the concept of modern unions limits worker power, since it created a lot of laws preventing workers to organize as they wish and instead have to fit the very narrow framework that are modern unions. Workers had more power back then when they were free to organize without the limitations of modern unions. For example, why even have a vote? Why have enforced term limits for unions that you can't kick them out before the limit is up? Why no bargaining as a group without a vote?
      - freen 5y ago
        Organizations have bylaws largely because without them, chaos reigns. A movement that hopes to continue must become an organization, that is, a collection of humans who agree to engage with each other according to an agreed upon set of rules. Your whole “movement != union” is a distinction without a difference.
whimsicalism 5y ago
To claim that labor movements are somehow divorced from unions is ahistorical. > what we call unions today are not that. Unions don't involve organizing, protesting, or fixing problems? How do you think unions ever get a contract? Your comment makes frustratingly little sense to me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Jensson 5y ago
  Socialist movements which pushed for workers rights in Europe are more based on Marx than unions. Most modern worker parties has their roots there, but of course some of the more extreme socialist policies has been dropped in favor of capitalism.