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> But could you imagine if we spoke about corporations in this manner? "I've worked for corporations and they are a mixed bag. In practice, they often abuse the

> But could you imagine if we spoke about corporations in this manner? "I've worked for corporations and they are a mixed bag. In practice, they often abuse their employees. I've personally witnessed bosses who contributed nothing for years and just played politics." We definitely talk about corporations in this way. All the time, in fact!

stuartjohnson12 5y ago
Right, but we don't oppose their existence on that basis.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  The original poster didn't oppose unions' existence and acknowledged they had advantages.
cft 5y ago
Moreover, the market often takes care of corporations that contribute nothing. Especially of the private ones. For the public ones, there's no "union" that protects their stock price on the stock market.
- User23 5y ago
  https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/plunge-protection-team.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/plunge-protection-team....
- JanisL 5y ago
  Open market operations of various central banks certainly impacts equity prices of publicly traded stocks. In some cases the holdings are enormous: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/BOJ-tops-pension-whale-as-Japan-s-largest-stockholder https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/BOJ-tops-pension-wh...
airza 5y ago
The point which i don’t think was articulated well by the GP is that depsite these objections to corporate power nobody (ok,few people) in HN threads ever seems to endorse getting rid of corporations.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Corporations creates enormous amounts of value, as far as we know modern society cannot function without those structures. Unions however are optional, even if they help they still aren't nearly as important as corporations. Edit: For those who disagree, how many modern societies are there without corporations running a majority of the economy? Not a single one. So as far as we know it doesn't work. It can work in theory, but it has never worked in practice. There are however many examples of modern economies with very little union influence, USA is an example, and USA is a better place to live than most countries. Unions can help, but countries that focused on strengthening unions and banning corporations did much worse than for example USA. Strengthening corporations and weakening unions however might have had some small negative effects but nearly not at the same level.
  - freen 5y ago
    I take it you work 7 days a week, no vacation, no lunch break, in incredibly unsafe conditions? No? Do you consider the fact that very few people have working conditions like those outlined above an enormously valuable thing for society? Great. Then you agree that Unions have created enormous amounts of value as well.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      Those were thanks to labor movements, not unions. They are not the same thing, labor movements happens thanks to Democracy. Democracy is crucial, I agree, it lets groups organize, protest and fix problems with how society works. But what we call unions today are not that. I'm all for labor engaging in politics, but they can do that without paying union dues for working at a company. The problem USA's workers face today isn't lack of unions, it is lack of proper representation in their democracy.
_jal 5y ago
> We definitely talk about corporations in this way. All the time, in fact! But it is always about individual bad actors, not "corporations". When MacDonald's franchises get press showing they're stealing employees' wages, people blame MacDonald's, or the individual franchises. When some union leader embezzles money, people talk about "those unions".
- codekansas 5y ago
  Partly this is a consequence of the relatively small number of unions compared to corporations (which is by design). For example, if you work in the auto industry, there are a lot of different corporations you could work for but only one major union. It also means that you generally have more choice in your employer than your union representation.
  - pydry 5y ago
    >For example, if you work in the auto industry, there are a lot of different corporations you could work for There really aren't. Perhaps if there were, union representation wouldnt be so desperately needed.
croes 5y ago
But corporations rarely get busted. Talk is cheap, but unions have to face actions.

stuartjohnson12 5y ago

Right, but we don't oppose their existence on that basis.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
The original poster didn't oppose unions' existence and acknowledged they had advantages.

cft 5y ago

Moreover, the market often takes care of corporations that contribute nothing. Especially of the private ones. For the public ones, there's no "union" that protects their stock price on the stock market.

User23 5y ago
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/plunge-protection-team.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/plunge-protection-team....
JanisL 5y ago
Open market operations of various central banks certainly impacts equity prices of publicly traded stocks. In some cases the holdings are enormous: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/BOJ-tops-pension-whale-as-Japan-s-largest-stockholder https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/BOJ-tops-pension-wh...

airza 5y ago

The point which i don’t think was articulated well by the GP is that depsite these objections to corporate power nobody (ok,few people) in HN threads ever seems to endorse getting rid of corporations.

Jensson 5y ago
Corporations creates enormous amounts of value, as far as we know modern society cannot function without those structures. Unions however are optional, even if they help they still aren't nearly as important as corporations. Edit: For those who disagree, how many modern societies are there without corporations running a majority of the economy? Not a single one. So as far as we know it doesn't work. It can work in theory, but it has never worked in practice. There are however many examples of modern economies with very little union influence, USA is an example, and USA is a better place to live than most countries. Unions can help, but countries that focused on strengthening unions and banning corporations did much worse than for example USA. Strengthening corporations and weakening unions however might have had some small negative effects but nearly not at the same level.
- freen 5y ago
  I take it you work 7 days a week, no vacation, no lunch break, in incredibly unsafe conditions? No? Do you consider the fact that very few people have working conditions like those outlined above an enormously valuable thing for society? Great. Then you agree that Unions have created enormous amounts of value as well.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Those were thanks to labor movements, not unions. They are not the same thing, labor movements happens thanks to Democracy. Democracy is crucial, I agree, it lets groups organize, protest and fix problems with how society works. But what we call unions today are not that. I'm all for labor engaging in politics, but they can do that without paying union dues for working at a company. The problem USA's workers face today isn't lack of unions, it is lack of proper representation in their democracy.

_jal 5y ago

> We definitely talk about corporations in this way. All the time, in fact! But it is always about individual bad actors, not "corporations". When MacDonald's franchises get press showing they're stealing employees' wages, people blame MacDonald's, or the individual franchises. When some union leader embezzles money, people talk about "those unions".

codekansas 5y ago
Partly this is a consequence of the relatively small number of unions compared to corporations (which is by design). For example, if you work in the auto industry, there are a lot of different corporations you could work for but only one major union. It also means that you generally have more choice in your employer than your union representation.
- pydry 5y ago
  >For example, if you work in the auto industry, there are a lot of different corporations you could work for There really aren't. Perhaps if there were, union representation wouldnt be so desperately needed.

croes 5y ago

But corporations rarely get busted. Talk is cheap, but unions have to face actions.