6 ms·

If you're ready to compare salaries between U.S and Germany, you should also discuss free healthcare, free childcare from 12 months, and the ~100 euro a month c

by shmatt 5y ago

If you're ready to compare salaries between U.S and Germany, you should also discuss free healthcare, free childcare from 12 months, and the ~100 euro a month cost under 12 months. Now compare to the "rich" American ~$4500/month for childcare until age 5, and lets not start with healthcare, and average cost of an apartment

kmonad 5y ago
Could you provide a source that childcare costs that much, even in a major city? How is it calculated? If that number were true, vast swaths of people could not afford to have children.
- martinald 5y ago
  https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ suggests the average is about 1/3rd of that. But I wouldn't be surprised in NYC or SF/SV it could be that high.
  - kmonad 5y ago
    Thank you. These numbers look more realistic in most cases. Also, without being too sure, an additional dependent should reduce the tax burden at the marginal rate. Not sure how much this actually yields. *edited as I made an incorrect assumption just now.
- deleted 5y ago
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- shmatt 5y ago
  A cost of a nanny (on the books) or a full time 8am-6pm-ish day care 5 days a week in SF/NYC/Seattle There aren't even that many options for parents, many under 5 day care companies won't do 10 hour days. Lots of "2s programs" which means 3 hours 3 times a week where I am.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  I pay nearly 3k in a area that is half the cost of NYC for everything else.
martinald 5y ago
Childcare is probably true but Europeans in general completely misunderstand American healthcare for employees. In the US, healthcare is provided as an additional benefit on top of your gross salary. Whereas in Europe it is taken out of your gross wages in the form of tax. Obviously there are still issues with copays etc, but the bulk of the cost is actually additional to your salaries. On apartments, I'm not sure how true that is these days. You can easily pay 2k+ EUR/month for a nice apartment in Berlin or Munich (even Lisbon, where I lived recently - where the local minimum wage is close to $3/hour!). Cheaper than the NYC or SF, but nowhere near the difference it was a few years ago. There are also many low cost of living places in the US where you'll pay a fraction of European housing costs but still get vastly more salary. Most Europeans seem to have their head in the sand in this (I say this as one). They completely underestimate the salary differences between Europe and the US for middle class jobs, and vastly overestimate the benefits they get from the higher taxation. It is just not possible to say someone earning 3k EUR/month after tax is doing better fiscally than someone in the US earning $200k for the same job, paying 30-50% less tax.
- deleted 5y ago
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- deleted 5y ago
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- noahtallen 5y ago
  > In the US, healthcare is provided as an additional benefit on top of your gross salary. I think it is actually rare for health care to be completely paid for out of pocket by the employer. Comparing with several peers in and out of tech (including one at FAANG), most companies only cover a portion of the health insurance premium cost per month. Retirement benefits also normally require you to contribute money from your paycheck. (For example, a company might contribute $0.5 per $1 you also contribute, up to a percentage of your salary) Plus, there are usually still loads of out-of-pocket expenses even with insurance. Point being: I think the math is more complex on this one.
oneoff786 5y ago
The average “rich” American tends to get pretty solid healthcare for free or at negligible cost from their employer. Healthcare in America is bad for the median but very good for the privileged.
bhelkey 5y ago
The median household income in the US in 2020 was $67,521 [1]. $4500 * 12 = $54000. I don't have kids so I can't call on personal experience, but Spending the median household income after tax on childcare seems high. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-27...

by shmatt 5y ago

kmonad 5y ago

Could you provide a source that childcare costs that much, even in a major city? How is it calculated? If that number were true, vast swaths of people could not afford to have children.

martinald 5y ago
https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ suggests the average is about 1/3rd of that. But I wouldn't be surprised in NYC or SF/SV it could be that high.
- kmonad 5y ago
  Thank you. These numbers look more realistic in most cases. Also, without being too sure, an additional dependent should reduce the tax burden at the marginal rate. Not sure how much this actually yields. *edited as I made an incorrect assumption just now.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shmatt 5y ago
A cost of a nanny (on the books) or a full time 8am-6pm-ish day care 5 days a week in SF/NYC/Seattle There aren't even that many options for parents, many under 5 day care companies won't do 10 hour days. Lots of "2s programs" which means 3 hours 3 times a week where I am.
willcipriano 5y ago
I pay nearly 3k in a area that is half the cost of NYC for everything else.

martinald 5y ago

Childcare is probably true but Europeans in general completely misunderstand American healthcare for employees. In the US, healthcare is provided as an additional benefit on top of your gross salary. Whereas in Europe it is taken out of your gross wages in the form of tax. Obviously there are still issues with copays etc, but the bulk of the cost is actually additional to your salaries. On apartments, I'm not sure how true that is these days. You can easily pay 2k+ EUR/month for a nice apartment in Berlin or Munich (even Lisbon, where I lived recently - where the local minimum wage is close to $3/hour!). Cheaper than the NYC or SF, but nowhere near the difference it was a few years ago. There are also many low cost of living places in the US where you'll pay a fraction of European housing costs but still get vastly more salary. Most Europeans seem to have their head in the sand in this (I say this as one). They completely underestimate the salary differences between Europe and the US for middle class jobs, and vastly overestimate the benefits they get from the higher taxation. It is just not possible to say someone earning 3k EUR/month after tax is doing better fiscally than someone in the US earning $200k for the same job, paying 30-50% less tax.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
noahtallen 5y ago
> In the US, healthcare is provided as an additional benefit on top of your gross salary. I think it is actually rare for health care to be completely paid for out of pocket by the employer. Comparing with several peers in and out of tech (including one at FAANG), most companies only cover a portion of the health insurance premium cost per month. Retirement benefits also normally require you to contribute money from your paycheck. (For example, a company might contribute $0.5 per $1 you also contribute, up to a percentage of your salary) Plus, there are usually still loads of out-of-pocket expenses even with insurance. Point being: I think the math is more complex on this one.

oneoff786 5y ago

The average “rich” American tends to get pretty solid healthcare for free or at negligible cost from their employer. Healthcare in America is bad for the median but very good for the privileged.

bhelkey 5y ago

The median household income in the US in 2020 was $67,521 [1]. $4500 * 12 = $54000. I don't have kids so I can't call on personal experience, but Spending the median household income after tax on childcare seems high. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-273.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-27...