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Meanwhile, in Germany grocery prices increased by ~14% * (not confuse with inflation) and there is little to none salary increase comparing to US... An average

Meanwhile, in Germany grocery prices increased by ~14% * (not confuse with inflation) and there is little to none salary increase comparing to US... An average software engineer in Germany only makes ~3000 euro per month after tax and even less in other European countries. * https://www.morgenpost.de/vermischtes/article233549815/aldi-lidl-rewe-edeka-kaufland-preise-supermarkt.html https://www.morgenpost.de/vermischtes/article233549815/aldi-...

aantix 5y ago
Why are software engineer salaries so low in Germany?
- engineeringwoke 5y ago
  I've worked in US and northern EU and in the latter there is basically no funding (relatively) and no talent feeders like FAANG. Senior engineers are also enamored with unnecessary complexity and founders still want to treat technical folks (even very senior) like cogs in a machine.
- moneywoes 5y ago
  I believe the better question is why US salaries are so high
  - aantix 5y ago
    Scalability of work? The work of a few engineers can support a workflow of a million users. That spending $1 on engineering can bring in $10 of revenue.
    - ahtihn 5y ago
      Is that work somehow less scalable when done in Germany?
      - ushakov 5y ago
        FAANG targets global audience, German companies target primarily Germany/Switzerland/Austria
      - aantix 5y ago
        The U.S. has the consumer products that have reached global scale. And they probably want to deal only with engineers from the U.S. for legal reasons. And up until recently, they’ve only hired in the Valley. Finding qualified distributed system engineers with that funnel would definitely reduce the pool to several thousands.
  - caskstrength 5y ago
    > I believe the better question is why US salaries are so high Why wouldn't they be? US companies that drive up the salaries are extremely profitable and they compete for limited pool of engineers.
- MagnumOpus 5y ago
  FAANG stock price increases and the California startup bubble have increased money availability to the US software industry and massively inflated what coders cam earn there over the last 15 years. Eventually this has translated in raises across the US as other companies lost their best coders to FAANG (and MS and unicorns that pay six digits). Europe remains fairly isolated from this effect because (a) not enough EU coders want to move to the US even at triple the salary to cause a shortage of coders there and (b) FAANG and US firms can get away with paying less in Europe because remote work is not yet quite equivalent to being on-prem in the US...
  - vmception 5y ago
    also not all EU coders can come to the US even to network while on a tourists visa because many can't get those either. these are correlated with extremely destitute areas of europe where earnings are much lower, but they can go to Germany.
    - ahtihn 5y ago
      Most of the people who can go to Germany can easily go to Switzerland as well where salaries are much, much higher.
- michaelt 5y ago
  Germany doesn't have adtech companies like Facebook and Google that vacuum up cash from the entire globe and deposit it all into San Francisco, or finance companies that vacuum up sketchy money from global oligarchs and deposit it all into London. Why don't German developers move to SF or London? Some do, but then they're not software developers in Germany... Why don't SF and London companies hire Germans to work remotely? Some are willing to - but they're also willing to hire Polish and Bulgarian developers, so the market rate isn't that great.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  They don't have strong unions like in America.
  - monadgonad 5y ago
    Tech workers are extremely ununionised, especially in the US. While this may be the case in other industries (though I doubt it - Germany famously has much better labour laws than the US and other European countries), I don’t think it has any effect on developer salaries.
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      > ununionised ionised then?
sailingparrot 5y ago
> in Germany grocery prices increased by ~14% * 14%, over more than 6 years...: "Compared to 2015, they were even 14.1 percent higher in August 2021" from your article. That's not even 2.5% per year. Central bank's target is usually around 2% of inflation per year, this is considered a "healthy" inflation rate. So nothing to see here. However it has been +4% in just the last year, which while not being anywhere near dramatic is high. > (not confuse with inflation) What do you mean? This is inflation
shmatt 5y ago
If you're ready to compare salaries between U.S and Germany, you should also discuss free healthcare, free childcare from 12 months, and the ~100 euro a month cost under 12 months. Now compare to the "rich" American ~$4500/month for childcare until age 5, and lets not start with healthcare, and average cost of an apartment
- kmonad 5y ago
  Could you provide a source that childcare costs that much, even in a major city? How is it calculated? If that number were true, vast swaths of people could not afford to have children.
  - martinald 5y ago
    https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ suggests the average is about 1/3rd of that. But I wouldn't be surprised in NYC or SF/SV it could be that high.
    - kmonad 5y ago
      Thank you. These numbers look more realistic in most cases. Also, without being too sure, an additional dependent should reduce the tax burden at the marginal rate. Not sure how much this actually yields. *edited as I made an incorrect assumption just now.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - shmatt 5y ago
    A cost of a nanny (on the books) or a full time 8am-6pm-ish day care 5 days a week in SF/NYC/Seattle There aren't even that many options for parents, many under 5 day care companies won't do 10 hour days. Lots of "2s programs" which means 3 hours 3 times a week where I am.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    I pay nearly 3k in a area that is half the cost of NYC for everything else.

aantix 5y ago

Why are software engineer salaries so low in Germany?

engineeringwoke 5y ago
I've worked in US and northern EU and in the latter there is basically no funding (relatively) and no talent feeders like FAANG. Senior engineers are also enamored with unnecessary complexity and founders still want to treat technical folks (even very senior) like cogs in a machine.
moneywoes 5y ago
I believe the better question is why US salaries are so high
- aantix 5y ago
  Scalability of work? The work of a few engineers can support a workflow of a million users. That spending $1 on engineering can bring in $10 of revenue.
  - ahtihn 5y ago
    Is that work somehow less scalable when done in Germany?
    - ushakov 5y ago
      FAANG targets global audience, German companies target primarily Germany/Switzerland/Austria
    - aantix 5y ago
      The U.S. has the consumer products that have reached global scale. And they probably want to deal only with engineers from the U.S. for legal reasons. And up until recently, they’ve only hired in the Valley. Finding qualified distributed system engineers with that funnel would definitely reduce the pool to several thousands.
- caskstrength 5y ago
  > I believe the better question is why US salaries are so high Why wouldn't they be? US companies that drive up the salaries are extremely profitable and they compete for limited pool of engineers.
MagnumOpus 5y ago
FAANG stock price increases and the California startup bubble have increased money availability to the US software industry and massively inflated what coders cam earn there over the last 15 years. Eventually this has translated in raises across the US as other companies lost their best coders to FAANG (and MS and unicorns that pay six digits). Europe remains fairly isolated from this effect because (a) not enough EU coders want to move to the US even at triple the salary to cause a shortage of coders there and (b) FAANG and US firms can get away with paying less in Europe because remote work is not yet quite equivalent to being on-prem in the US...
- vmception 5y ago
  also not all EU coders can come to the US even to network while on a tourists visa because many can't get those either. these are correlated with extremely destitute areas of europe where earnings are much lower, but they can go to Germany.
  - ahtihn 5y ago
    Most of the people who can go to Germany can easily go to Switzerland as well where salaries are much, much higher.
michaelt 5y ago
Germany doesn't have adtech companies like Facebook and Google that vacuum up cash from the entire globe and deposit it all into San Francisco, or finance companies that vacuum up sketchy money from global oligarchs and deposit it all into London. Why don't German developers move to SF or London? Some do, but then they're not software developers in Germany... Why don't SF and London companies hire Germans to work remotely? Some are willing to - but they're also willing to hire Polish and Bulgarian developers, so the market rate isn't that great.
missedthecue 5y ago
They don't have strong unions like in America.
- monadgonad 5y ago
  Tech workers are extremely ununionised, especially in the US. While this may be the case in other industries (though I doubt it - Germany famously has much better labour laws than the US and other European countries), I don’t think it has any effect on developer salaries.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    > ununionised ionised then?

sailingparrot 5y ago

> in Germany grocery prices increased by ~14% * 14%, over more than 6 years...: "Compared to 2015, they were even 14.1 percent higher in August 2021" from your article. That's not even 2.5% per year. Central bank's target is usually around 2% of inflation per year, this is considered a "healthy" inflation rate. So nothing to see here. However it has been +4% in just the last year, which while not being anywhere near dramatic is high. > (not confuse with inflation) What do you mean? This is inflation

shmatt 5y ago

If you're ready to compare salaries between U.S and Germany, you should also discuss free healthcare, free childcare from 12 months, and the ~100 euro a month cost under 12 months. Now compare to the "rich" American ~$4500/month for childcare until age 5, and lets not start with healthcare, and average cost of an apartment

kmonad 5y ago
Could you provide a source that childcare costs that much, even in a major city? How is it calculated? If that number were true, vast swaths of people could not afford to have children.
- martinald 5y ago
  https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ https://www.care.com/c/how-much-does-child-care-cost/ suggests the average is about 1/3rd of that. But I wouldn't be surprised in NYC or SF/SV it could be that high.
  - kmonad 5y ago
    Thank you. These numbers look more realistic in most cases. Also, without being too sure, an additional dependent should reduce the tax burden at the marginal rate. Not sure how much this actually yields. *edited as I made an incorrect assumption just now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- shmatt 5y ago
  A cost of a nanny (on the books) or a full time 8am-6pm-ish day care 5 days a week in SF/NYC/Seattle There aren't even that many options for parents, many under 5 day care companies won't do 10 hour days. Lots of "2s programs" which means 3 hours 3 times a week where I am.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  I pay nearly 3k in a area that is half the cost of NYC for everything else.