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You casually mention C++ along with C but you can't really put them in the same bucket. C++ is terribly, mindbogglingly, utterly, complex, its main selling poin

You casually mention C++ along with C but you can't really put them in the same bucket. C++ is terribly, mindbogglingly, utterly, complex, its main selling points being zero-cost abstractions and compatibility with C. Perhaps we have different experiences but I don't see Rust as complex to learn with respect to C++. In C++, coming from C, the syntax is deceptively similar but you have to track in your head where the memory is, and seemingly simple operators like "=" or "()" can mean a whole lot of different stuff. Not to mention the craziness of the more advanced features. Rust is first a system programming language with zero-cost abstractions with the least possible pain, then it is a safe language, way safer than C++. In any case I am following the community and I have a hard time finding people saying C++ is nice for them. There are few people who have been coding C++ for 20+ years and "love" it but they are far and between. Almost nobody tried both Rust and C++ and continued using C++ for new projects. So I predict Rust won't replace C, they have different use cases, but it will make a dent in C++.

pjmlp 5y ago
There is one caveat though, as long as Rust depends on LLVM, it won't fully make it.
- DerArzt 5y ago
  > as long as Rust depends on LLVM, it won't fully make it Why won't it? I haven't really used rust or LLVM before, so I am genuinely curious.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    LLVM is written in C++, so any change of Rust compiler that requires changes in the backend requires C++ knowledge, and naturally dependency on a C++ compiler to get the rust compiler binary.
    - DerArzt 5y ago
      Ah, I see what you mean now. The follow up question I have is: so what? Python is an extremely popular language that is built on C/C++. Unless you are a contributor to the rust spec, why would it matter what language the compiler is written in? The way I take it, the rust compiler team can either spend their time trying to get to being self hosted, or they can spend their time making improvements to the language.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Because one of the Rust goals is to improve the security landscape and reduce the use of C and C++. It is a bit hard to achieve such goal if improving Rust requires to some extent, to keep writing C++. Naturally some day the compiler might be fully bootstraped, however that implies throwing away the work being done by legions of C++ devs on LLVM (same applies to be front ends being written to plug Rust into GCC).
        DerArzt 5y ago
        Yeah, it would be nice if the compiler team was dog-fooding, but we need to be pragmatic don't we?
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Indeed, hence why many need to understand that Rust vs C++ isn't a zero sum game, and any improvements to C++'s own security story are more than welcomed.
        gmfawcett 5y ago
        Excellent point!

pjmlp 5y ago

There is one caveat though, as long as Rust depends on LLVM, it won't fully make it.

DerArzt 5y ago
> as long as Rust depends on LLVM, it won't fully make it Why won't it? I haven't really used rust or LLVM before, so I am genuinely curious.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  LLVM is written in C++, so any change of Rust compiler that requires changes in the backend requires C++ knowledge, and naturally dependency on a C++ compiler to get the rust compiler binary.
  - DerArzt 5y ago
    Ah, I see what you mean now. The follow up question I have is: so what? Python is an extremely popular language that is built on C/C++. Unless you are a contributor to the rust spec, why would it matter what language the compiler is written in? The way I take it, the rust compiler team can either spend their time trying to get to being self hosted, or they can spend their time making improvements to the language.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Because one of the Rust goals is to improve the security landscape and reduce the use of C and C++. It is a bit hard to achieve such goal if improving Rust requires to some extent, to keep writing C++. Naturally some day the compiler might be fully bootstraped, however that implies throwing away the work being done by legions of C++ devs on LLVM (same applies to be front ends being written to plug Rust into GCC).
      - DerArzt 5y ago
        Yeah, it would be nice if the compiler team was dog-fooding, but we need to be pragmatic don't we?
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Indeed, hence why many need to understand that Rust vs C++ isn't a zero sum game, and any improvements to C++'s own security story are more than welcomed.
        gmfawcett 5y ago
        Excellent point!