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The collective panic and Luddism about Telegram in Germany is really scary. I watch Tagesschau (probably most respected news show) every evening. Any time Teleg

The collective panic and Luddism about Telegram in Germany is really scary. I watch Tagesschau (probably most respected news show) every evening. Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism.

guerrilla 5y ago
> Tagesschau Can you give me a date to look for an example in? I haven't see that yet.
- bijant 5y ago
  https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/funk/todesdrohungen-telegram-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/funk/todesdrohungen-t... „In Germany, alleged individual cases of calls for killing from the lateral thinker scene have been discussed for days. Research now shows that there have been calls to kill every day since mid-November.“ https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/telegram-verfassungsschutz-corona-leugner-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/telegram-verfassungsschutz-... „Radicalized Corona Deniers What can the state do about Telegram? Corona deniers use the Telegram messenger service to let their fantasies of violence run free. The state wants to take action against it. The new interior minister is facing a mammoth task.“ https://www.tagesschau.de/regional/nordrheinwestfalen/wdr-story-44973.html https://www.tagesschau.de/regional/nordrheinwestfalen/wdr-st... „North Rhine-Westphalia State security investigates corona demos: anti-Semitism in Telegram chats At a demonstration against the Corona measures in Kamp-Lintfort, a participant is said to have shown the Hitler salute on Tuesday. The Duisburg State Security is now investigating. The Duisburg State Security is investigating in the vicinity of the demonstrators who demonstrate as self-proclaimed "walkers" against the corona policy. The allegations are massive: It is about anti-Semitic hate speech. The focus is on chat groups that run via the "Telegram" service. The demonstrations are planned there.“ https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/br-recherche/querdenker-bundeswehrsoldaten-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/br-recherche/querdenk... „MAD is investigating two other soldiers Investigations are currently underway against at least two other Bundeswehr soldiers because they made radical statements against corona measures. Research by BR and tagesschau.de revealed this . One should pay close attention to the choice of words, according to a mountain hunter in a more than seven-minute voice message published on the Telegram messenger platform in December last year. The Bundeswehr is a "company" in which everything is done to "destroy us patriots who are trapped in the Bundeswehr". What is meant is the obligation to enforce corona vaccinations for soldiers.“
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Oh yeah, that's very comprehensive. Thanks. Funny, it fits so well.
    - rndgermandude 5y ago
      It's only scratching the surface of the reporting, there is much more. Some of the reporting might be due to "collective panic", but a lot of the reporting is due to telegram choosing to stay oblivious to groups that constantly abuse the service to make terrorism plans, e.g. recently a plan to murder the minister of health of a federal state, or groups with tens of thousands of members constantly publishing "traitor" lists of politicians, journalists and other public figures along with their private addresses, names of family members and even schools their kids visit, demanding the group members "inform" these "traitors" and their families that they will be hanged for their actions soon. At least last bit isn't just journalists making up stuff. I saw "queerdenker" stickers in my city giving a telegram link, which curious as I am checked out, and one of the first things I saw was somebody sharing a list of "Volksverräter" ("traitors to the people") followed by a lot of "hang them" comments by other people. I distinctly remember one person commenting that he had already sent a letter to one of the politicians containing a "Hinrichtungsbefehl" (order for execution) he cobbled together, of which he posted a screenshot. It was single page letter meant to look "official" that listed "crimes" (such as treason) the politician was supposed to have committed, and concluded that therefore the politician was to be hanged or executed by a firing squad (choice of the politician, isn't that nice? :P). The consensus of people in that group replying to that guy was that the letter was a good one, with some suggestions on how to improve it in the future. The group and the list in the chat history were still up a week later, so neither the group moderators nor telegram removed it.
  - odiroot 5y ago
    Thank you bijant, you did better job than me :)
tut-urut-utut 5y ago
At she same time, Telegram gets praised in German media when it comes to allowing supporting pro western activist and opposition in Belarus, Russia, Hong-Kong and other “enemy” states. It's hilarious to watch both praising and bashing Telegram in the same evening news, and how no journalist seems to care.
- Schlaefer 5y ago
  The news shows the extraordinary. It also reports car accidents and car shows, but not all the millions of people driving everyday.
- zaik 5y ago
  So they're mentioning both the good and bad uses of something. What's wrong?
  - tjansen 5y ago
    Telegram's distinct feature is the lack of state surveillance. This allows activists and oppositions all over the world to use it. But not only in Belarus Hong Kong and Russia, but also in Germany...
pera 5y ago
Hilarious, everyone I know in Germany uses Telegram, it seems quite popular over there.
- uniqueuid 5y ago
  It is, ~12 million users in a country of ~90 million.
  - izacus 5y ago
    Which probably explains why the government really really wants that backdoor so badly.
YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker". It may not be the main use of telegram but if you are a member of the public only seeing these kind of stickers everywhere would make me worry as well.
- iqanq 5y ago
  I don't see the issue. People (should) have a right to meet other people with similar interests and organise.
  - lima 5y ago
    Yes, but there's limits - like similar interests in extremism, calls to violence, assassination plots...
    - iqanq 5y ago
      Everybody wants to be the one who decides what is extreme and what is mainstream so they can silence and ostracise those who don't think the way they do.
      - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
        We made the decision because the law is not a arbitrary thing it gets implemented because of what is written in our constitution and by law makers that we voted into place. If you want to change the law do it politically and get a majority like we did with cannabis and stop rambling about "freedoms" on the internet.
        amadeuspagel 5y ago
        > stop rambling about "freedoms" To ramble about something means to talk about it in a confused way. If you find something specific confusing about the way the parent comment talks about "freedoms", maybe you should point that out. (Of course the parent comment doesn't talk about "freedoms" at all, confused or not.)
shaan7 5y ago
Yep, just like "Oh you are downloading via torrent? Why do you do illegal stuff like that?" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
thathndude 5y ago
What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations. A bad actor that wants to hobble free speech and communication could flood a system with illegal, antisemitic speech, and then turn around and use that speech that they are spreading as a justification to have the communication platform taken down.
- captainmuon 5y ago
  You don't even need false flag operations. Real COVID-deniers and Nazis are damn convenient if you want to ban telegram. They are also convenient if you want to prevent more strict COVID measures in order to "save the economy". Or to get everybody infected in a semi-controlled manner so you can "return back to normal". Or if you want to close the borders and restrict immigration. A lot of these people who think they are very edgy, critical and radical are just being played by the establishment.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations. Yeah, the German police/state is not new to this. There are always reports that the German police in plain clothes infiltrate protest groups and start throwing rocks at the riot police in uniforms, in order to justify police intervention by force to break up the protest.
- Arnt 5y ago
  Well, almost, but the difference is significant. Only one Telegram feature is mentioned in the source documents I've read, namely public searchable groups. I've heard that people in the ministries and agencies worry that nazis can recruit e.g. by searching for groups where people worry about this or that threat to nature, then joining and gradually trying to turn conversation towards threats to the Homeland. That kind of thing. A communication platform doesn't have to have that. Signal has groups, but you can't search for and join a group except by knowing a person in the group. Facebok has groups too, and some of those are (rumour has it) used/mentioned like the Telegram ones. I don't understand why the general media talk about "encrypted messenger service" when the source documents focus on a single feature that is essentially unencrypted, because public and searchable.
ekianjo 5y ago
> Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism. When the media is used as propaganda - surely this has never happened before?

guerrilla 5y ago

> Tagesschau Can you give me a date to look for an example in? I haven't see that yet.

bijant 5y ago
https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/funk/todesdrohungen-telegram-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/funk/todesdrohungen-t... „In Germany, alleged individual cases of calls for killing from the lateral thinker scene have been discussed for days. Research now shows that there have been calls to kill every day since mid-November.“ https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/telegram-verfassungsschutz-corona-leugner-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/telegram-verfassungsschutz-... „Radicalized Corona Deniers What can the state do about Telegram? Corona deniers use the Telegram messenger service to let their fantasies of violence run free. The state wants to take action against it. The new interior minister is facing a mammoth task.“ https://www.tagesschau.de/regional/nordrheinwestfalen/wdr-story-44973.html https://www.tagesschau.de/regional/nordrheinwestfalen/wdr-st... „North Rhine-Westphalia State security investigates corona demos: anti-Semitism in Telegram chats At a demonstration against the Corona measures in Kamp-Lintfort, a participant is said to have shown the Hitler salute on Tuesday. The Duisburg State Security is now investigating. The Duisburg State Security is investigating in the vicinity of the demonstrators who demonstrate as self-proclaimed "walkers" against the corona policy. The allegations are massive: It is about anti-Semitic hate speech. The focus is on chat groups that run via the "Telegram" service. The demonstrations are planned there.“ https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/br-recherche/querdenker-bundeswehrsoldaten-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/br-recherche/querdenk... „MAD is investigating two other soldiers Investigations are currently underway against at least two other Bundeswehr soldiers because they made radical statements against corona measures. Research by BR and tagesschau.de revealed this . One should pay close attention to the choice of words, according to a mountain hunter in a more than seven-minute voice message published on the Telegram messenger platform in December last year. The Bundeswehr is a "company" in which everything is done to "destroy us patriots who are trapped in the Bundeswehr". What is meant is the obligation to enforce corona vaccinations for soldiers.“
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Oh yeah, that's very comprehensive. Thanks. Funny, it fits so well.
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    It's only scratching the surface of the reporting, there is much more. Some of the reporting might be due to "collective panic", but a lot of the reporting is due to telegram choosing to stay oblivious to groups that constantly abuse the service to make terrorism plans, e.g. recently a plan to murder the minister of health of a federal state, or groups with tens of thousands of members constantly publishing "traitor" lists of politicians, journalists and other public figures along with their private addresses, names of family members and even schools their kids visit, demanding the group members "inform" these "traitors" and their families that they will be hanged for their actions soon. At least last bit isn't just journalists making up stuff. I saw "queerdenker" stickers in my city giving a telegram link, which curious as I am checked out, and one of the first things I saw was somebody sharing a list of "Volksverräter" ("traitors to the people") followed by a lot of "hang them" comments by other people. I distinctly remember one person commenting that he had already sent a letter to one of the politicians containing a "Hinrichtungsbefehl" (order for execution) he cobbled together, of which he posted a screenshot. It was single page letter meant to look "official" that listed "crimes" (such as treason) the politician was supposed to have committed, and concluded that therefore the politician was to be hanged or executed by a firing squad (choice of the politician, isn't that nice? :P). The consensus of people in that group replying to that guy was that the letter was a good one, with some suggestions on how to improve it in the future. The group and the list in the chat history were still up a week later, so neither the group moderators nor telegram removed it.
- odiroot 5y ago
  Thank you bijant, you did better job than me :)

tut-urut-utut 5y ago

At she same time, Telegram gets praised in German media when it comes to allowing supporting pro western activist and opposition in Belarus, Russia, Hong-Kong and other “enemy” states. It's hilarious to watch both praising and bashing Telegram in the same evening news, and how no journalist seems to care.

Schlaefer 5y ago
The news shows the extraordinary. It also reports car accidents and car shows, but not all the millions of people driving everyday.
zaik 5y ago
So they're mentioning both the good and bad uses of something. What's wrong?
- tjansen 5y ago
  Telegram's distinct feature is the lack of state surveillance. This allows activists and oppositions all over the world to use it. But not only in Belarus Hong Kong and Russia, but also in Germany...

pera 5y ago

Hilarious, everyone I know in Germany uses Telegram, it seems quite popular over there.

uniqueuid 5y ago
It is, ~12 million users in a country of ~90 million.
- izacus 5y ago
  Which probably explains why the government really really wants that backdoor so badly.

YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago

say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker". It may not be the main use of telegram but if you are a member of the public only seeing these kind of stickers everywhere would make me worry as well.

iqanq 5y ago
I don't see the issue. People (should) have a right to meet other people with similar interests and organise.
- lima 5y ago
  Yes, but there's limits - like similar interests in extremism, calls to violence, assassination plots...
  - iqanq 5y ago
    Everybody wants to be the one who decides what is extreme and what is mainstream so they can silence and ostracise those who don't think the way they do.
    - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
      We made the decision because the law is not a arbitrary thing it gets implemented because of what is written in our constitution and by law makers that we voted into place. If you want to change the law do it politically and get a majority like we did with cannabis and stop rambling about "freedoms" on the internet.
      - amadeuspagel 5y ago
        > stop rambling about "freedoms" To ramble about something means to talk about it in a confused way. If you find something specific confusing about the way the parent comment talks about "freedoms", maybe you should point that out. (Of course the parent comment doesn't talk about "freedoms" at all, confused or not.)

shaan7 5y ago

Yep, just like "Oh you are downloading via torrent? Why do you do illegal stuff like that?" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

thathndude 5y ago

What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations. A bad actor that wants to hobble free speech and communication could flood a system with illegal, antisemitic speech, and then turn around and use that speech that they are spreading as a justification to have the communication platform taken down.

captainmuon 5y ago
You don't even need false flag operations. Real COVID-deniers and Nazis are damn convenient if you want to ban telegram. They are also convenient if you want to prevent more strict COVID measures in order to "save the economy". Or to get everybody infected in a semi-controlled manner so you can "return back to normal". Or if you want to close the borders and restrict immigration. A lot of these people who think they are very edgy, critical and radical are just being played by the establishment.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations. Yeah, the German police/state is not new to this. There are always reports that the German police in plain clothes infiltrate protest groups and start throwing rocks at the riot police in uniforms, in order to justify police intervention by force to break up the protest.
Arnt 5y ago
Well, almost, but the difference is significant. Only one Telegram feature is mentioned in the source documents I've read, namely public searchable groups. I've heard that people in the ministries and agencies worry that nazis can recruit e.g. by searching for groups where people worry about this or that threat to nature, then joining and gradually trying to turn conversation towards threats to the Homeland. That kind of thing. A communication platform doesn't have to have that. Signal has groups, but you can't search for and join a group except by knowing a person in the group. Facebok has groups too, and some of those are (rumour has it) used/mentioned like the Telegram ones. I don't understand why the general media talk about "encrypted messenger service" when the source documents focus on a single feature that is essentially unencrypted, because public and searchable.

ekianjo 5y ago

> Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism. When the media is used as propaganda - surely this has never happened before?