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It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's there

It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. For a leak of such a virus to happen from a BSL4 facility that routinely handles much more contagious viruses, you would need incompetence or funding issues, yes.

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andreilys 5y ago
Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy for a reason. Just because they are “leaders in the field of safety” doesn’t mean that a lab leak is impossible, just unlikely.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You can argue it's a logical fallacy, doesn't change I was responding to a strawman. The argument isn't an argument from authority either, it's just that they are well known for using very safe procedures.
riyadparvez 5y ago
> Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. This is nothing but disinformation. > Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-dep... > Instead, there is Chinese evidence that the lab had safety problems. VOA has located state media reports showing that there were security incidents flagged by national inspections as well as reported accidents that occurred when workers were trying to catch bats for study. [2] https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19/6187947.html https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_chinese-lab-chec...
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That's interesting, because when you ignore the spin on both texts, you find out there is no contradictory information at all. Yet you could that it's nothing but disinformation. You should also note that the article is in the Opinion section, and doesn't actually publish the cables. The cables the is factually claiming is that US officials learnt that the research going on at the lab indicated that there is a high risk of a coronavirus causing a pandemic, that there is a risk of zoonosis, and that there are risks associated with this research. There are no specific claims of bad practices or mismanagement, and it is entirely likely that the author is using those words to refer to the decision to do this kind of research as well as GoF research when he talks about unsafe practices and mismanagement, as they are the only material issues with safety and management he mentioned. Beyond that, I don't see any evidence the lab was operating unsafely. If the virus really was in those populations, you'd need two unlikely things to happen, since we all agree the virus wasn't engineered. First, the Chinese government needs to have made the conscious decision not to release proof that the virus was natural. Indeed, if it was being studied alive, the WIV would absolutely have identified it and a precursor. They could have offered one or both of these, or returned to where they found it, and pinpoint an origin, absolving themselves of all these arguments. Then, the virus, which would belogically present in bat populations in those populated areas, would have had to escape a BSL4 lab, but not have escaped into society beforethen? What's the likelihood that it could have, while weakly infectious and poorly adapted to humans, managed to go through the protections of a BSL4 lab, but not managed to make it out of those animals?
  - riyadparvez 5y ago
    I don't have the time to go through lawyer-speak arguments. The cables from officials regarding WIV safety have been verified. Just because it's on the opinion page doesn't mean it's false. It has way more credibility than some random virologist's claim about WIV safety on Reddit. Period. Just few points: * There's no agreement that this virus hasn't been engineered. Ralph Baric has said that just looking at the DNA it's not possible to distinguish whether a virus has been engineered or not. Alina Chan had raised this point and Vox has even made a correction on their article [1]: > A previous version of this story stated that SARS-CoV-2 had been definitively proven not to be a bioengineered virus. While an August 2021 US intelligence report concluded, “Most agencies … assess with low confidence that SARS-CoV-2 probably was not genetically engineered,” and many scientists agree with that assessment, it was an overstatement to claim that the theory has been definitively ruled out. The introduction and conclusion of the story have been updated to reflect this lower level of certainty. (h/t to Alina Chan, biologist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, for her critique and input) Please don't spread misinformation. * A bio safety expert has weighed in and also expressed his concern about possible lab leak of SARS-CoV-2 [2]. * Viruses escape labs on regular basis [3]. Someone else on this thread also posted a link of a recent virus escape from a Taiwan lab. * This is not the first time a lab leak happened and virologists tried to cover up. It happened during Soviet era in the 70s [4]. The truth came out after the fall of Soviet Union. [1] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22734496/genetic-engineering-attribution-biosecurity-forensics-biological-detective-work https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22734496/genetic-engineer... [2] https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1479170984343064579 https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1479170984343064579 [3] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly-pathogens-escape-lab-smallpox-bird-flu https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/world/europe/coronavirus-lab-anthrax.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/world/europe/coronavirus-...
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andreilys 5y ago

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy for a reason. Just because they are “leaders in the field of safety” doesn’t mean that a lab leak is impossible, just unlikely.

sudosysgen 5y ago
You can argue it's a logical fallacy, doesn't change I was responding to a strawman. The argument isn't an argument from authority either, it's just that they are well known for using very safe procedures.

riyadparvez 5y ago

> Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. This is nothing but disinformation. > Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-dep... > Instead, there is Chinese evidence that the lab had safety problems. VOA has located state media reports showing that there were security incidents flagged by national inspections as well as reported accidents that occurred when workers were trying to catch bats for study. [2] https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19/6187947.html https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-pandemic_chinese-lab-chec...

sudosysgen 5y ago
That's interesting, because when you ignore the spin on both texts, you find out there is no contradictory information at all. Yet you could that it's nothing but disinformation. You should also note that the article is in the Opinion section, and doesn't actually publish the cables. The cables the is factually claiming is that US officials learnt that the research going on at the lab indicated that there is a high risk of a coronavirus causing a pandemic, that there is a risk of zoonosis, and that there are risks associated with this research. There are no specific claims of bad practices or mismanagement, and it is entirely likely that the author is using those words to refer to the decision to do this kind of research as well as GoF research when he talks about unsafe practices and mismanagement, as they are the only material issues with safety and management he mentioned. Beyond that, I don't see any evidence the lab was operating unsafely. If the virus really was in those populations, you'd need two unlikely things to happen, since we all agree the virus wasn't engineered. First, the Chinese government needs to have made the conscious decision not to release proof that the virus was natural. Indeed, if it was being studied alive, the WIV would absolutely have identified it and a precursor. They could have offered one or both of these, or returned to where they found it, and pinpoint an origin, absolving themselves of all these arguments. Then, the virus, which would belogically present in bat populations in those populated areas, would have had to escape a BSL4 lab, but not have escaped into society beforethen? What's the likelihood that it could have, while weakly infectious and poorly adapted to humans, managed to go through the protections of a BSL4 lab, but not managed to make it out of those animals?
- riyadparvez 5y ago
  I don't have the time to go through lawyer-speak arguments. The cables from officials regarding WIV safety have been verified. Just because it's on the opinion page doesn't mean it's false. It has way more credibility than some random virologist's claim about WIV safety on Reddit. Period. Just few points: * There's no agreement that this virus hasn't been engineered. Ralph Baric has said that just looking at the DNA it's not possible to distinguish whether a virus has been engineered or not. Alina Chan had raised this point and Vox has even made a correction on their article [1]: > A previous version of this story stated that SARS-CoV-2 had been definitively proven not to be a bioengineered virus. While an August 2021 US intelligence report concluded, “Most agencies … assess with low confidence that SARS-CoV-2 probably was not genetically engineered,” and many scientists agree with that assessment, it was an overstatement to claim that the theory has been definitively ruled out. The introduction and conclusion of the story have been updated to reflect this lower level of certainty. (h/t to Alina Chan, biologist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, for her critique and input) Please don't spread misinformation. * A bio safety expert has weighed in and also expressed his concern about possible lab leak of SARS-CoV-2 [2]. * Viruses escape labs on regular basis [3]. Someone else on this thread also posted a link of a recent virus escape from a Taiwan lab. * This is not the first time a lab leak happened and virologists tried to cover up. It happened during Soviet era in the 70s [4]. The truth came out after the fall of Soviet Union. [1] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22734496/genetic-engineering-attribution-biosecurity-forensics-biological-detective-work https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22734496/genetic-engineer... [2] https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1479170984343064579 https://twitter.com/jbloom_lab/status/1479170984343064579 [3] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly-pathogens-escape-lab-smallpox-bird-flu https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly... [4] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/world/europe/coronavirus-lab-anthrax.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/20/world/europe/coronavirus-...

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