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> “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. You know what else causes unnecessary harm to science,

> “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. You know what else causes unnecessary harm to science, public trust and health policy? Repeated and condescending lies and gas-lighting from those in charge.

senectus1 5y ago
so also does the firehose of conspiracy theory's, misinformation and lunatic fringe that appears to be the overtly noisy minority on all forms of media these days.
- disambiguation 5y ago
  Deliberate misinformation directly from your government meant to control the reaction of the masses is orders of magnitude more dangerous than your right-wing uncle meme-ing on Facebook. Not even close.
  - senectus1 5y ago
    Not sure I agree. Its harder for Gov to keep a secret than it is for a facebook group to maintain a lie. much much harder. And there are various degrees of accountability to every level of a Gov. Not as much as I'd like and not as reliable as i'd like it to be, but its there. there is zero, zilch, no accountability for facebook liars.
    - nervlord 5y ago
- mod 5y ago
  I'm going to jump in here, because I wanted to make a point about conspiracy theorists, too. What pisses me off most about this is that now it's so much easier for a conspiracy theorist to believe in government cover-ups of big, important things. One of my family members is way into all this stuff, and next time I tell him cancer isn't cured because how would all the experts across the globe all simultaneously keep that a secret--he's gonna point at this. People can be stupid and believe really crazy ideas, but let's not have governments and experts lying to the people they represent.
- coolhand2120 5y ago
  The problem is that the lab leak was dismissed as a conspiracy theory as are many of the things that have now come to pass, e.g.: ineffective vaccines, side effects. Pair that with the disinformation coming from once trusted institutions, e.g.: 5 vs 10 day quarantine, sending health care workers to work while still positive. It's no wonder people are giving more credence to these fringe groups. The government has nobody to blame but itself for such poor messaging.
  - senectus1 5y ago
    But don't you see the conflicting positions here... on one hand The Gov and bureaucracies in general have ham-fisted the response. This surprises no one really. we all know that Governments can be awful at these sorts of things. yet somehow they have masterminded the development and release of a contagious bio weapon and done it in damn near perfected secrecy? How can someone hold both those statements with equal weight in their minds at the same time. does. not. compute.
    - ngc248 5y ago
      The "Government" is not one monolithic being. They are composed of various people/orgs with varying capabilities. Some are incompetent and some are competent at the work they do.
      - senectus1 5y ago
        thats exactly why its so ridiculously hard to keep a secret. its made up of thousands of people, all with their own personalities, objectives, desires, beliefs and competencies.
        mandmandam 5y ago
        Manhattan Project. Tonkin. For a long time, everything Snowden proved. It's doable, and has been done. And is being done.
dang 5y ago
Ok, but can you please not post unsubstantive comments or flamebait to HN? Your comment here is low-information/high-indignation. We're looking for the other way around. "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

senectus1 5y ago

so also does the firehose of conspiracy theory's, misinformation and lunatic fringe that appears to be the overtly noisy minority on all forms of media these days.

disambiguation 5y ago
Deliberate misinformation directly from your government meant to control the reaction of the masses is orders of magnitude more dangerous than your right-wing uncle meme-ing on Facebook. Not even close.
- senectus1 5y ago
  Not sure I agree. Its harder for Gov to keep a secret than it is for a facebook group to maintain a lie. much much harder. And there are various degrees of accountability to every level of a Gov. Not as much as I'd like and not as reliable as i'd like it to be, but its there. there is zero, zilch, no accountability for facebook liars.
  - nervlord 5y ago
mod 5y ago
I'm going to jump in here, because I wanted to make a point about conspiracy theorists, too. What pisses me off most about this is that now it's so much easier for a conspiracy theorist to believe in government cover-ups of big, important things. One of my family members is way into all this stuff, and next time I tell him cancer isn't cured because how would all the experts across the globe all simultaneously keep that a secret--he's gonna point at this. People can be stupid and believe really crazy ideas, but let's not have governments and experts lying to the people they represent.
coolhand2120 5y ago
The problem is that the lab leak was dismissed as a conspiracy theory as are many of the things that have now come to pass, e.g.: ineffective vaccines, side effects. Pair that with the disinformation coming from once trusted institutions, e.g.: 5 vs 10 day quarantine, sending health care workers to work while still positive. It's no wonder people are giving more credence to these fringe groups. The government has nobody to blame but itself for such poor messaging.
- senectus1 5y ago
  But don't you see the conflicting positions here... on one hand The Gov and bureaucracies in general have ham-fisted the response. This surprises no one really. we all know that Governments can be awful at these sorts of things. yet somehow they have masterminded the development and release of a contagious bio weapon and done it in damn near perfected secrecy? How can someone hold both those statements with equal weight in their minds at the same time. does. not. compute.
  - ngc248 5y ago
    The "Government" is not one monolithic being. They are composed of various people/orgs with varying capabilities. Some are incompetent and some are competent at the work they do.
    - senectus1 5y ago
      thats exactly why its so ridiculously hard to keep a secret. its made up of thousands of people, all with their own personalities, objectives, desires, beliefs and competencies.
      - mandmandam 5y ago
        Manhattan Project. Tonkin. For a long time, everything Snowden proved. It's doable, and has been done. And is being done.

dang 5y ago

Ok, but can you please not post unsubstantive comments or flamebait to HN? Your comment here is low-information/high-indignation. We're looking for the other way around. "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html