7 ms·

I believe this theory is largely thought false nowadays, or phrased too strongly at least. I myself have weird sleep cycles. I prefer to stay up into the night

I believe this theory is largely thought false nowadays, or phrased too strongly at least. I myself have weird sleep cycles. I prefer to stay up into the night and wake up around 12:00, but I vary my sleeping hours by up to 4 hours or so. I go to sleep when I feel like it, and don't feel much discomfort by falling asleep at different times. It leads to weird situations - especially in winter - where I might not see the sun more than a couple hours in 3 days despite being up and around a lot. I don't experience a lot of 'two sleeps', but they do occasionally happen.

the_only_law 5y ago
This would almost work for me, except one of the “when I feel like sleeping” times aligns with the peak of workday, and “when I fell perfectly awake and refreshed” is too late.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Too late for whom? Apparently, not for you. With WFH, taking a nice little siesta isn't impossible (and anecdotally sounds like its more common than some would like to admit). Of course, forced to work in an office makes it harder, and probably surrounded by bosses much less sympathetic to the concept.
- dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
  It was like that for me too when I worked 9-5 (or more like 6). Now I work "biphasal" days so to speak, from 12:00-16:00 and sometime later in the evening for a couple hours. I find that splitting it up helps me be more productive, I have more of my "software development energy" to spend. I'm lucky that my work offers very flexible hours since we hire around the globe and nobody in my team minds that I review their MRs in the middle of the night. I usually use the day hours as "open office time" for support requests and meetings, and the later time as "proper work time". This helps me avoid context switches.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
>this theory is largely thought false nowadays, or phrased too strongly at least. What theory? The article doesn't really claim that this kind of sleep is better or more natural, just that it was incredibly common. Is the idea that it was common now thought to be false?
- rtsil 5y ago
  The "it was incredibly common" part is the theory. I don't know if anyone else besides Roger Ekirch supports it, which doesn't mean it's false of course. Our ignorance of things past is gigantic and not helped by the fact that history (and stories) tend to be constantly rewritten.
- notahacker 5y ago
  I don't know about commonly thought to be false because I'm not sure it's commonly thought about at all, but it's a theory with considerable weaknesses Ekirch hypothesis: Early humans had two distinct phases of sleep with an important gap between. Lack of in-depth discussion or even a name for that gap in any language is actually evidence of it being so common it wasn't worth commenting on. It disappeared - again without comment - because of widely available artificial light, although it actually makes less sense to dedicate midnight hours to stuff like household chores and reading in the middle of the night without easy light sources, especially in northern European summer when it's about the only time there isn't daylight. Null hypothesis: early humans slept much like today's humans, sometimes waking or being woken in the night, occasionally even intentionally but generally not making a big deal of it and trying to sleep through. People sometimes described periods of broken sleep as "first sleep", "second sleep" and even "third sleep" but commentary on the practise of biphasic sleep and importance of midnight waking is harder to find because most people didn't do it that way. A lot of references to "first sleep" can be found if you search digitized records with that string and its foreign language equivalents, but so can references to obviously non-systematic things like "first injury" or "first marriage". You can't generalise human behaviour in the absence of electricity from one tribe that does have a midnight break when numerous others studied don't.
  - Izkata 5y ago
xhrpost 5y ago
I've heard that this theory is true, I've also heard that it is a myth that it is true, and I've even heard that it is a myth that it is a myth.
- dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
  Hehe, yes. Since the literature is split I can offer my anecdata from living in low light conditions (in the mountains of Eastern Europe with no electricity): It happens rarely. But enough times that one might notice it. If you experiment with lucid dreaming, you realize that the time you usually wake up is in between your REM cycles at the 4 hour mark. If you take a 15 minute break from sleep in your bed at this time, then fall asleep while trying to keep your mind awake (by, say, counting backwards, or just "willing it"), you can fall directly into a lucid dream. If you try this at the beginning of your sleep, you just fall into a long sleep paralysis and hypnagogia session. Your next REM cycle is too far away. So, yes, it's real. But I think it's more likely that it was experienced much like nowadays, as a rare occurrence rather than a standard.
- Der_Einzige 5y ago
  Intuitionistic logic, in MY HN? Blasphemy!
- huetius 5y ago
  An interesting data point: even today, the Liturgy of the Hours, which is the regiment of prayer for Christian monks and nuns, contains prayers for the middle of the night.
wruza 5y ago
I used to sleep like this too, for around 15 years (20-35yo). Then I began to experience many-day insomnias, or inability to wake up until my body feels like it. Troubles with digestion, immune system, motivation and mental state in general (all interlinked). Checking my hormone levels was like rolling dice every time. My endocrinologist, gastroenterologist, neurologist, psychotherapist all told me that if I don't correct my sleep cycles and get married, I'll suffer even more. I did the former half a year ago and feel much better. It doesn't have to be connected, maybe my health would deteriorate independently of sleep or alone factors, but doctors say that it puts you into the risk group at the very least. I'd say be careful, but 5-10 years ago I'd also waved it away as irrelevant :)
nottorp 5y ago
> I prefer to stay up into the night and wake up around 12:00, but I vary my sleeping hours by up to 4 hours or so. I go to sleep when I feel like it, and don't feel much discomfort by falling asleep at different times. Yep. Exactly the same here. I tend to wake up 7-9 hours after I go to sleep (usually between 00-04:00) no matter when that happens. With very rare occurences of two part sleep. No side effects by 45, but I do exercise. Come to think of it, I may get two part sleep more often than I think, because I do wake up during the sleep period. But most of the time I ignore it and fall asleep again in a couple minutes.
a_square_peg 5y ago
Yeah - I'm currently reading 'Why We Sleep' by Matthew Walker (excellent book by the way) and it mentions that this theory has been debunked.
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  I haven't read Why We Sleep yet, but I do remember a post[1] on here a while ago which found issue with some of the books' claims. YMMV [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850
  - a_square_peg 5y ago
    Oh wow, that's interesting. Will take a look - thanks for the info. [Edit] - Ok, I read the review and I can see why you added YMMV.
jgilias 5y ago
I used to be an adventurer like you, then I got kids.
daneel_w 5y ago
It may be thought of false, but historic documents from many European countries mention and detail it as the common habit. There is no theory or claim about its benefits, just that it was habitual.
naikrovek 5y ago
what theory? the article is about a person who found copious evidence for this. "two sleeps" was pure fact for a very long time.

the_only_law 5y ago

This would almost work for me, except one of the “when I feel like sleeping” times aligns with the peak of workday, and “when I fell perfectly awake and refreshed” is too late.

dylan604 5y ago
Too late for whom? Apparently, not for you. With WFH, taking a nice little siesta isn't impossible (and anecdotally sounds like its more common than some would like to admit). Of course, forced to work in an office makes it harder, and probably surrounded by bosses much less sympathetic to the concept.
dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
It was like that for me too when I worked 9-5 (or more like 6). Now I work "biphasal" days so to speak, from 12:00-16:00 and sometime later in the evening for a couple hours. I find that splitting it up helps me be more productive, I have more of my "software development energy" to spend. I'm lucky that my work offers very flexible hours since we hire around the globe and nobody in my team minds that I review their MRs in the middle of the night. I usually use the day hours as "open office time" for support requests and meetings, and the later time as "proper work time". This helps me avoid context switches.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

>this theory is largely thought false nowadays, or phrased too strongly at least. What theory? The article doesn't really claim that this kind of sleep is better or more natural, just that it was incredibly common. Is the idea that it was common now thought to be false?

rtsil 5y ago
The "it was incredibly common" part is the theory. I don't know if anyone else besides Roger Ekirch supports it, which doesn't mean it's false of course. Our ignorance of things past is gigantic and not helped by the fact that history (and stories) tend to be constantly rewritten.
notahacker 5y ago
I don't know about commonly thought to be false because I'm not sure it's commonly thought about at all, but it's a theory with considerable weaknesses Ekirch hypothesis: Early humans had two distinct phases of sleep with an important gap between. Lack of in-depth discussion or even a name for that gap in any language is actually evidence of it being so common it wasn't worth commenting on. It disappeared - again without comment - because of widely available artificial light, although it actually makes less sense to dedicate midnight hours to stuff like household chores and reading in the middle of the night without easy light sources, especially in northern European summer when it's about the only time there isn't daylight. Null hypothesis: early humans slept much like today's humans, sometimes waking or being woken in the night, occasionally even intentionally but generally not making a big deal of it and trying to sleep through. People sometimes described periods of broken sleep as "first sleep", "second sleep" and even "third sleep" but commentary on the practise of biphasic sleep and importance of midnight waking is harder to find because most people didn't do it that way. A lot of references to "first sleep" can be found if you search digitized records with that string and its foreign language equivalents, but so can references to obviously non-systematic things like "first injury" or "first marriage". You can't generalise human behaviour in the absence of electricity from one tribe that does have a midnight break when numerous others studied don't.
- Izkata 5y ago

xhrpost 5y ago

I've heard that this theory is true, I've also heard that it is a myth that it is true, and I've even heard that it is a myth that it is a myth.

dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
Hehe, yes. Since the literature is split I can offer my anecdata from living in low light conditions (in the mountains of Eastern Europe with no electricity): It happens rarely. But enough times that one might notice it. If you experiment with lucid dreaming, you realize that the time you usually wake up is in between your REM cycles at the 4 hour mark. If you take a 15 minute break from sleep in your bed at this time, then fall asleep while trying to keep your mind awake (by, say, counting backwards, or just "willing it"), you can fall directly into a lucid dream. If you try this at the beginning of your sleep, you just fall into a long sleep paralysis and hypnagogia session. Your next REM cycle is too far away. So, yes, it's real. But I think it's more likely that it was experienced much like nowadays, as a rare occurrence rather than a standard.
Der_Einzige 5y ago
Intuitionistic logic, in MY HN? Blasphemy!
huetius 5y ago
An interesting data point: even today, the Liturgy of the Hours, which is the regiment of prayer for Christian monks and nuns, contains prayers for the middle of the night.

wruza 5y ago

I used to sleep like this too, for around 15 years (20-35yo). Then I began to experience many-day insomnias, or inability to wake up until my body feels like it. Troubles with digestion, immune system, motivation and mental state in general (all interlinked). Checking my hormone levels was like rolling dice every time. My endocrinologist, gastroenterologist, neurologist, psychotherapist all told me that if I don't correct my sleep cycles and get married, I'll suffer even more. I did the former half a year ago and feel much better. It doesn't have to be connected, maybe my health would deteriorate independently of sleep or alone factors, but doctors say that it puts you into the risk group at the very least. I'd say be careful, but 5-10 years ago I'd also waved it away as irrelevant :)

nottorp 5y ago

> I prefer to stay up into the night and wake up around 12:00, but I vary my sleeping hours by up to 4 hours or so. I go to sleep when I feel like it, and don't feel much discomfort by falling asleep at different times. Yep. Exactly the same here. I tend to wake up 7-9 hours after I go to sleep (usually between 00-04:00) no matter when that happens. With very rare occurences of two part sleep. No side effects by 45, but I do exercise. Come to think of it, I may get two part sleep more often than I think, because I do wake up during the sleep period. But most of the time I ignore it and fall asleep again in a couple minutes.

a_square_peg 5y ago

Yeah - I'm currently reading 'Why We Sleep' by Matthew Walker (excellent book by the way) and it mentions that this theory has been debunked.

honkdaddy 5y ago
I haven't read Why We Sleep yet, but I do remember a post[1] on here a while ago which found issue with some of the books' claims. YMMV [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850
- a_square_peg 5y ago
  Oh wow, that's interesting. Will take a look - thanks for the info. [Edit] - Ok, I read the review and I can see why you added YMMV.

jgilias 5y ago

I used to be an adventurer like you, then I got kids.

daneel_w 5y ago

It may be thought of false, but historic documents from many European countries mention and detail it as the common habit. There is no theory or claim about its benefits, just that it was habitual.

naikrovek 5y ago

what theory? the article is about a person who found copious evidence for this. "two sleeps" was pure fact for a very long time.