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> This is supposed to be a technical community so can we stop with this lazy abuse of terminology. Since this is a technical community, and you're a technical

by ctvo 5y ago

> This is supposed to be a technical community so can we stop with this lazy abuse of terminology. Since this is a technical community, and you're a technical person who presumably knows how iMessage / Apple's infrastructure works, can you explain if this is correct: - I'm an iPhone user with phone number N. In Apple's system, I'm flagged as supporting the iMessage protocol. Presumably Apple has some gateway that routes messages, and this sends me down the iMessage route. - I swap phones. I now own an Android device. I have the same phone number N. - Apple's system is slow to update, and its gateway still sees me as an iPhone user supporting the iMessage protocol. - All messages from other iPhone users to my phone number are routed incorrectly and I don't receive them until Apple updates its gateway to use SMS for my phone number. If the above is correct, what would you call that? People who want to contact me have no idea what a protocol is, but Apple has impacted their ability to communicate with me. They think all text messages are the same, but this layer Apple has built isn't open or interoperable, and is additional friction for anyone wanting to switch off their platform. It's very hard to excuse this behavior.

gmu3 5y ago
hijacking
Shank 5y ago
I’m not saying this flow is good, but you can deregister and disable iMessage, even if you don’t leave iOS, but especially if you do: https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/ https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/ It’s not intuitive of course, but you can totally turn it off and deregister, even if you don’t have your iPhone anymore.
- ghughes 5y ago
  This only works for 1:1 conversations. If you were in any iMessage groups and then deregister, iOS will silently drop you from future messages, and it isn't possible for the same group composition to be re-established over MMS.
  - acdha 5y ago
    That makes sense since SMS doesn't support iMessage's always-on encryption but normally you can recreate the group using SMS once the former iMessage user's deregistration has gone through.
    - ghughes 5y ago
      No, you can't do that. Once you've been a member of an iMessage group, iOS will not allow participants who have iMessage enabled to switch to MMS with that same group of users, even if everyone deletes and re-creates the thread.
  - pornel 5y ago
    SMS/MMS is insecure, so ability to replace an authenticated iMessage user with an SMS recipient in existing groups would endanger the whole groups.
    - hcurtiss 5y ago
      It could at least ask the user the question. "One of the users on this thread has deregistered their number. Would you like to send by SMS so that they are included, or are you comfortable excluding them from this conversation? The SMS message would not be encrypted."
Terretta 5y ago
If an SMS sent to your new phone with your old number gets to you, then pretty clearly SMS was not hijacked. On the contrary, Messages is routing messages to Messages IDs, and it's kinda on you whether you use an ID string that looks suspiciously similar to your number. This is incredibly easy to turn on and off: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201349 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201349 To be clear, you can have an iphone with an SMS phone number and Messages, and not ever mingle the two. Further, you can have a SMS phone get your SMS messages, while Apple users with your number reach, say, your iPad. That's a valid use case. In the situation you lay out above, where you forgot you didn't want to use that as your Messages ID any more, you can "de-register" if you forgot to remove it: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203042 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203042 https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/ https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/
- hcurtiss 5y ago
  >This is incredibly easy to turn on and off If only if it worked as advertised. I can turn it off as to messages directed only to me. But if a group text was on iMessage and I'm the only one who bounces off to Android, new messages to that thread will exclude me, EVEN IF I'VE DEREGISTERED MY NUMBER. I've tried this repeatedly. The only way to begin receiving messages from that group is if EVERYONE on the thread deletes the old thread and begins a new one in green bubbles. It ENRAGES me, and it's been the biggest barrier to me transitioning to a Galaxy phone. When I'm the only one on Android, I just stop receiving the messages to the legacy group threads. And there's no way I make 30 iPhone users all delete those threads. Apple could ask its own servers "have any of these iMessage accounts deregistered their number? If yes, force thread back to SMS/MMS." Apple does not do that, and thereby severely handicaps any effort to move away. I hate it and would happily support a class action to change that practice.
Fogest 5y ago
That problem is just with an Apple user to an ex-Apple user. In other words it's a problem that Apple exclusively created and they benefit from not fixing it. It just means a current Apple user goes to text you and Apple thinks you are still using imessage so instead of sending an SMS message it sends it via their imessage service. Apple likely makes this process a pain to make it harder for people to switch OS'es and makes you more locked in. Not only are you going to lose your imessage groups, but you'll also have difficulty for awhile with getting messages properly.
sfeeney 5y ago
I've also noticed that once you have an iphone if another iphone user adds you as a contact it stores your number as "iPhone" in the contact card type. When I've switched back and forth from Android on a few occasions I've had to have users update that contact card for SMS to work properly. I don't think its necessarily an iMessage issue more iOS, but if anyone is still having issues with the switch after de-registering, check that.
mr_toad 5y ago
> All messages from other iPhone users to my phone number are routed incorrectly and I don't receive them until Apple updates its gateway to use SMS for my phone number. iMessage falls back to SMS within a few minutes if the message can’t be delivered. This often happens if the recipient doesn’t have a data connection.
larkost 5y ago
How exactly is Apple supposed to know that you have switched phones? Any way I can think of requires privacy intrusions that make me shudder. However, they do have UI on all of their iMessage programs, and on the website that you can get to from any web browser (on any brand of device) for your AppleID/iCloud account that can remove your phone number from your AppleID at any time. Then, after some minor propagation time, messages from Apple users to your phone number will no longer be routed to your iMessages account, and will instead be sent as SMSs. So you have an option to tell Apple at any moment, even after you have switched, that you no longer want that number attached to iMessages. How exactly is that hijacking?
geraneum 5y ago
That’s not how it works. When an iMessage cannot be delivered for any reason (phone changes to Android, no internet, etc.) the message will be sent as SMS within minutes. It works per message and this behavior can be toggled in settings. I personally toggle it off so that I don’t get accidentally charged for SMS. When iMessage fails it tells me under each message’s bubble so I can send via SMS by tapping on it if I like.

by ctvo 5y ago

gmu3 5y ago

hijacking

Shank 5y ago

I’m not saying this flow is good, but you can deregister and disable iMessage, even if you don’t leave iOS, but especially if you do: https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/ https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/ It’s not intuitive of course, but you can totally turn it off and deregister, even if you don’t have your iPhone anymore.

ghughes 5y ago
This only works for 1:1 conversations. If you were in any iMessage groups and then deregister, iOS will silently drop you from future messages, and it isn't possible for the same group composition to be re-established over MMS.
- acdha 5y ago
  That makes sense since SMS doesn't support iMessage's always-on encryption but normally you can recreate the group using SMS once the former iMessage user's deregistration has gone through.
  - ghughes 5y ago
    No, you can't do that. Once you've been a member of an iMessage group, iOS will not allow participants who have iMessage enabled to switch to MMS with that same group of users, even if everyone deletes and re-creates the thread.
- pornel 5y ago
  SMS/MMS is insecure, so ability to replace an authenticated iMessage user with an SMS recipient in existing groups would endanger the whole groups.
  - hcurtiss 5y ago
    It could at least ask the user the question. "One of the users on this thread has deregistered their number. Would you like to send by SMS so that they are included, or are you comfortable excluding them from this conversation? The SMS message would not be encrypted."

Terretta 5y ago

If an SMS sent to your new phone with your old number gets to you, then pretty clearly SMS was not hijacked. On the contrary, Messages is routing messages to Messages IDs, and it's kinda on you whether you use an ID string that looks suspiciously similar to your number. This is incredibly easy to turn on and off: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201349 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201349 To be clear, you can have an iphone with an SMS phone number and Messages, and not ever mingle the two. Further, you can have a SMS phone get your SMS messages, while Apple users with your number reach, say, your iPad. That's a valid use case. In the situation you lay out above, where you forgot you didn't want to use that as your Messages ID any more, you can "de-register" if you forgot to remove it: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203042 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203042 https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/ https://selfsolve.apple.com/deregister-imessage/

hcurtiss 5y ago
>This is incredibly easy to turn on and off If only if it worked as advertised. I can turn it off as to messages directed only to me. But if a group text was on iMessage and I'm the only one who bounces off to Android, new messages to that thread will exclude me, EVEN IF I'VE DEREGISTERED MY NUMBER. I've tried this repeatedly. The only way to begin receiving messages from that group is if EVERYONE on the thread deletes the old thread and begins a new one in green bubbles. It ENRAGES me, and it's been the biggest barrier to me transitioning to a Galaxy phone. When I'm the only one on Android, I just stop receiving the messages to the legacy group threads. And there's no way I make 30 iPhone users all delete those threads. Apple could ask its own servers "have any of these iMessage accounts deregistered their number? If yes, force thread back to SMS/MMS." Apple does not do that, and thereby severely handicaps any effort to move away. I hate it and would happily support a class action to change that practice.

Fogest 5y ago

That problem is just with an Apple user to an ex-Apple user. In other words it's a problem that Apple exclusively created and they benefit from not fixing it. It just means a current Apple user goes to text you and Apple thinks you are still using imessage so instead of sending an SMS message it sends it via their imessage service. Apple likely makes this process a pain to make it harder for people to switch OS'es and makes you more locked in. Not only are you going to lose your imessage groups, but you'll also have difficulty for awhile with getting messages properly.

sfeeney 5y ago

I've also noticed that once you have an iphone if another iphone user adds you as a contact it stores your number as "iPhone" in the contact card type. When I've switched back and forth from Android on a few occasions I've had to have users update that contact card for SMS to work properly. I don't think its necessarily an iMessage issue more iOS, but if anyone is still having issues with the switch after de-registering, check that.

mr_toad 5y ago

> All messages from other iPhone users to my phone number are routed incorrectly and I don't receive them until Apple updates its gateway to use SMS for my phone number. iMessage falls back to SMS within a few minutes if the message can’t be delivered. This often happens if the recipient doesn’t have a data connection.

larkost 5y ago

How exactly is Apple supposed to know that you have switched phones? Any way I can think of requires privacy intrusions that make me shudder. However, they do have UI on all of their iMessage programs, and on the website that you can get to from any web browser (on any brand of device) for your AppleID/iCloud account that can remove your phone number from your AppleID at any time. Then, after some minor propagation time, messages from Apple users to your phone number will no longer be routed to your iMessages account, and will instead be sent as SMSs. So you have an option to tell Apple at any moment, even after you have switched, that you no longer want that number attached to iMessages. How exactly is that hijacking?

geraneum 5y ago

That’s not how it works. When an iMessage cannot be delivered for any reason (phone changes to Android, no internet, etc.) the message will be sent as SMS within minutes. It works per message and this behavior can be toggled in settings. I personally toggle it off so that I don’t get accidentally charged for SMS. When iMessage fails it tells me under each message’s bubble so I can send via SMS by tapping on it if I like.