9 ms·

Ask HN: Is the US still the best place to live?

24 points by kurizu4444 5y ago

Are the (significantly) higher salaries worth it? If you could take your salary and live in a different country, would you do it?

johng 5y ago
I think this one is going to be entirely subjective. It depends on what you want and what your priorities are.
- MarcelOlsz 5y ago
  Some days I'll listen to Marty Robbins and day dream of dropping everything and moving to West Texas.
version_five 5y ago
I'm in Canada and the US is very appealing to me. More money, more personal freedom, better healthcare, more choice of food and other goods. I understand there is lots of disparity and some people are very badly off there, and I hear bad things about certain cities (but I'd want to do my own research before I believe what I read online). Overall though, if you're well off, the US is very appealing. Just to add, recent events have made the US even more appealing, but the "brain drain" from canada is very real and people have been moving to the US to make a better life for themselves for decades. I don't believe anything has changed
- KiranRao0 5y ago
  As a Canadian living in the US, here is my experience: Advantages - Higher Salaries (as a SWE, but similar for friends in other high skill professions) - Faster, more accessible healthcare - Easier access to COVID vaccines/boosters - Access to more products/services - Amazon has everything - Better credit card perks Disadvantages - Actually using healthcare is expensive - Losing my job is insanely scary (losing healthcare) - Way more advertisements (billboards, credit card offers, drug ads) - Banking is way more fragmented - The wealth gap is visibly wider (rich areas are slightly nicer, poor areas are far worse)
  - digianarchist 5y ago
    Most Canadians would have to leave if they didn’t have another job anyway for visa reasons. Those 60 days would be difficult though. I’m assuming non-US citizens or PRs can’t use COBRA?
    - KiranRao0 5y ago
      Partially. Depending on the Visa, Canadians need to leave within n days. However, it's extremely easy to re-enter as a visitor (B-2) and stay for 6 months. Canadians are eligible for COBRA if they've earned income within the year. https://theea.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/WhenisanemployeeeligibleforCOBRA.pdf https://theea.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Whenisanemploye...
  - dataflow 5y ago
    > Losing my job is insanely scary (losing healthcare) While this might be unusual, as I understand it, nothing really prevents you from getting your own insurance. Even if your health insurance premium were to cost $1000/month (which it likely doesn't), if your pay bump would be > $12k/year (+ tax) by moving as a SWE (which it probably would be), you could still go without a job for a whole year and still maintain your insurance. It would obviously be infeasible for someone in a profession with much lower income, but from what you said it sounds like it would be an option.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      It has been a while since I've lived in the US, but I think it is completely possible to pay $1000/month for health insurance. For a single person, a family is more. Employers subsidize your insurance, after all. I was paying couple hundred a month for two people - subsidized - and that was years ago. A family plan was even more. Even then, you have to have money to use it. On top of the insurance premiums, you'll have to pay a deductible. You'll probably pay $3000 (more or less) before the insurance even starts to pay anything, and then you'll have to pay a few thousand more before things start being free. Prescriptions probably won't count towards these totals. If you are lucky, you will have good coverage. If not, you might be out a few hundred a month for a single drug. Depending. I mean, people have been rationing insulin.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  I definitely agree with the diminishing returns of remaining in Canada as you become wealthier. I’m making the move this year. As a single income household there are a lot of tax advantages in the US compared to Canada.
- Mattasher 5y ago
  We moved from Toronto to Florida at the beginning of last year. Could not be happier with the decision. The US used to be much more of a monolith, now there are huge differences between the states. All of Canada is still in a mass hysteria that will continue for years.
  - version_five 5y ago
    Yes, I think the difference has been much more clear recently. Both countries have hysterical people, but in Canada everyone is forced to go along with the lowest common denominator whereas in the US you appear to have much more freedom to ignore them
  - busterarm 5y ago
    I moved from New York to Florida a few months ago and feel much the same. I have previously lived in Toronto and always thought of it as like New York but worse. Every day that I live in Florida feels like one of the best decisions I've made in my life so far. That said, the US has never been the best place to live. Copenhagen beats every city I've ever been to by miles.
    - Mattasher 5y ago
      Copenhagen looks like a lovely city but from what I can tell it's almost impossible to purchase real estate there.
      - busterarm 5y ago
        As a foreigner? Yes, you need government approval which is extremely difficult to get. You can as a permanent resident after some years. It's certainly a hot market as well, but there are a number of different options for financing. If your job is good enough it's certainly achievable and most of my software engineer friends there own their apartments.
    - deanmoriarty 5y ago
      Could you tell me what you found interesting about Florida? I am currently in the Midwest and deciding where to go next, specifically back to the West Coast where I lived for a decade, or branch out to another warm state (FL, TX).
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  > more personal freedom This is big to me (and not in a "muh freedum!" way). My perception is that in the US, you can just do something. Start a business. Start a political party. Start a protest. Change your name. Change your face. Change your profession. Change your religion. Change your gender. Some of those may be non-trivial, and you have no guarantee of success, but you can do them in the US easier than you can anywhere else. I said "my perception", because I haven't lived anywhere else, so... yeah. My perception.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    My perception is you can't even skip mowing your lawn without vist from local Karens claiming you are destroying their property value. I think if you actually attempt almost any of the things you listed you'll rough some feathers of people in that space and they will retaliate, because USA freedoms rely on lack of central control that allows inordinate amount of local bullying.
    - CodeGlitch 5y ago
      > Karens Off topic, but why is this term even remotely acceptable? If this was used to refer to an ethnic minority then everyone would be screaming "racist". Not to mention it's also sexists.
      - beecafe 5y ago
        It would be if it was, but its not so it isnt.
      - scotty79 5y ago
        Ask all the Dicks you meet if they are offended by how their name is used.
- gaws 5y ago
  > recent events have made the US even more appealing Such as?
ArtWomb 5y ago
Yes. Strong IP. Colossal market. Access to capital. Talent pool. State of the Art R&D. As well as the culture of "doing big things" ;) But there is a major headwind in location / real estate / cost of living. I was really intrigued by a recent poster who said $150k was enough for a 3 year run rate for their entire team in India!
et-al 5y ago
Folks would totally salary arbitrage if it was easy, but there's a few hoops to jump through (payroll allowing it, mail forwarding, timezones with coworkers, new languages, new bureaucracies). Not to mention the caring for older family members usually moves up in priority as they age.
dexwiz 5y ago
Unless you are in the Bay Area, NYC, or similar, the salaries aren't that much higher. You also have to weigh that against the lack of social services. Sure you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, but that can be easily wiped away by a major medical event or chronic illness. By very few measures is the US the best place to live, but those indices also combine large swaths of very different regions. FYI, I currently live in SF, but have worked elsewhere in the US and made considerably less. Maybe the difference isn't so stark now with the rise of remote work. But I do think remote work will ultimately lead to another wave of outsourcing, especially as the barrier for tech continues to decrease.
vanusa 5y ago
Was it ever? Social atomization, hyperconsumerism and a generally blighted physical environment (who-gives-a-fuck suburban sprawl nearly everywhere) are what define your life in most parts of this country, if you don't earn a high enough salary to offset their effects. That, and the relentless "life == work" mentality exhibited even in other comments in this thread.
- vanusa 5y ago
  Lest I come across as a glass half-empty person, let me mention a few things about this country that I genuinely like and which rare (if not unique) throughout the world: (1) Genuine ethnic diversity (simply unmatched in its breadth and scale), and a genuine, bedrock belief that (at least in principle) if you're a citizen you have a right to be here and to live your own life, dammit whatever your ancestry, religious belief, however you dress, etc. The fact that the racism which does exist is so virulent comes in part from the fact that it is a minority view. (2) Truly awesome natural beauty, also very diverse (what's left of it anyways) (3) Pioneering in LGBTO and abortion rights while much of the world remains a frightening place indeed in these respects. (4) A away of looking at life in the large and as full of possibility which has brought many bad things but also Jazz, Rock'n'Roll, amazing cinema, etc.
  - merlinscholz 5y ago
    Sorry but this just feels like you've never left the US: 1) The diversity may be partially right, but even if you are a citizen there still is enough discrimination especially against black people than in many first-world countries 2) Okay I grant you that, for a single country the US is very beautiful, mostly because of its sheer size. That's not to say there aren't beautiful spots in other countries though, there just cannot be as many 3) LGBT and abortion rights while there still is the bible belt, people blocking planned-parenthood institutions, and a significant part of the government actively trying to ban abortions and same-sex marriages, partially successful 4) The new world perspective through the rise of a new country only a few hundred years ago lead to lot's of innovation, but it is an illusion that the USA is the only country where any innovation and creativity happens
f0e4c2f7 5y ago
I think it is but the edge is slipping. If you're willing to do freelancing / consulting you can work your way up to US prices in Europe or with more effort in Asia. I would be interested in hearing what place might eventually (or now) be the US but better. The US I grew up in felt a little more naviely optimistic and ambitious which I would like to find more of. Lately it seems like I mostly meet extremely capable people who have access to massive capital and they choose to live a quiet life and retire rather than build stuff. Which is fine...but not what I'm looking for. India seems like a compelling possibility. Maybe Nigeria in a couple years? It's worth pointing out too how much this depends on city too. SF used to be the place that still had all that stuff but I've heard it's pretty tough to live there now.
deleted 5y ago
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spacechild1 5y ago
What an absurde premise.
deanmoriarty 5y ago
Regardless of the salary, I have never seen a place as beautiful as the West Coast, specifically the cities of San Diego, LA and SF. It still gives me goosebumps and watering eyes today when I land there. It might be that I am conflating the opportunities that the area has given me with the actual beauty, but I don’t think so. And I was born and raised in the beautiful Mediterranean coast in Europe.
- jpgvm 5y ago
  Heh. Come to Australia. West coast is nice but has nothing on Australia or New Zealand when it comes to beauty.
  - Mandatum 5y ago
    I agree the US coast don't have much to write home about, however Montana, Colorado & rockies, Yellowstone, there's so much nation park lands and accompanying towns in the US that really do match up to AU and NZ.
kadomony 5y ago
It never was? We are just good at advertising because that’s what runs this country.
pooochie 5y ago
It was maybe before the WWII, what are you looking at? Over-priced lousy food, living on a 1M+ cardboard box? The diversity is pretty is only skin deep, people living there are pretty much all the same, same hobbies, etc...
heavyset_go 5y ago
Depends. A heart attack in the US can cost over $1 million to survive, and can very easily bankrupt small business owners and those in the middle to upper middle classes. Cost of living has been increasing at rates that engineer compensation has not kept up with at all, especially in cities. In many EU countries, you get 35 days of paid vacation mandated by law, along with 6 months to over a year of maternity and paternity leave. In the US, you get no such guarantee, and undercurrents of the Protestant work ethic are very well and alive in our culture. Sometimes new hires are expected to not take any paid vacations for the first first year of their employment. There's also a strain of private authoritarianism when it comes to employment in the US, by default, some employers treat their employees like property, and can seemingly dictate the terms of employees' off-time. Stemming from this are expectations of being on-call, but without the benefits of things like accruing overtime, being paid time and a half or with handsome bonuses that workers elsewhere tend to demand. All in all, workers' rights in the US are dismal compared to many first-world countries. Truthfully, if I were younger and didn't have ties to the US, I would look into emigrating to the EU if they'd take me.
- deleted 5y ago
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- davidandgoliath 5y ago
  > A heart attack in the US can cost over $1 million to survive, and can very easily bankrupt small business owners and those in the middle to upper middle classes How does that work when (most? all?) healthcare packages often have ~3-7k max out of pocket fees per year?
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Probably what happens is that in your health emergency you suddenly discover that your specific problem won't be covered because it's expensive enough that some small print kicks in.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    Apparently https://khn.org/news/a-jolt-to-the-jugular-youre-insured-but-still-owe-109k-for-your-heart-attack/ https://khn.org/news/a-jolt-to-the-jugular-youre-insured-but... although this one is for $100k; not sure what drives it higher. I won't copy it here, but search that page for "surprise bills", "balance billing", and "loophole".
vmception 5y ago
Very large place and most of its advantages don't require being here. For developing nation immigrants, US can be appealing. For natural/existing US citizens, the US is a good starting point to leverage in more developed nations. Salary discussion is a bit limiting, better to just be rich enough. Have capital. If you must live off of what you earn you just want to earn more from one area and spend less in another area, so the answer to that is “yes”.
sometimeshuman 5y ago
"If you could take your salary and live in a different country..." Spain (?) perhaps, because Spanish culture may have a better work/life balance and coastal Spain is similar to coastal California climate-wise. I haven't been on a date in years and suspect many U.S. men in tech are in a similar situation. Also almost any conversation would be engaging/interesting/humbling because Spanish is not in my primary language and that provides an incentive to be more social.
dixie_land 5y ago
You just answered your own question. No one ever asks if (any other country) is the best
sg47 5y ago
Depends on whether you are white or not. US is great for white people and for immigrants from certain countries. Probably suboptimal for others but in terms of economic opportunity, it's the best for everyone.
kleer001 5y ago
Moving to Canada from the USA extended my expected life span by 4 years. 4 YEARS! That's only the average. Sheesh. Actuary tables are kinda the end all be all for living: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... But if you have more specific considerations there's likely stats on that.
mbrodersen 5y ago
I don’t think it ever was in general? I was offered a green card and a high value job in California. I decided to accept a job in Australia instead. That was the right choice for me. But YMMV of course. I think it depends on your personality, job situation etc. whether the US is the right choice for you or not.
- deanmoriarty 5y ago
  What made you decide to go to Australia as opposed to California with green card prospects? From my limited view point, the opportunity you left on the table was massive.
  - mbrodersen 5y ago
    I have lived and worked in the US and I realised that the Australian culture is a better fit for me. I probably would have made more money in the US but that is not #1 on my list of what is important. The amount of misery, stress, and anxiety I saw every day in the US was not something I agreed with. Coming from a well functioning European country, it was a shock to me to see people begging in the streets. Before living in the US I had never seen a beggar “live”. Only on TV. It was a massive culture shock for me. Australia is a perfect blend of Europe and the US. Best of both in my opinion.
soueuls 5y ago
I lived two years in the US as an exchange student, it was pretty fun and that’s what allowed me to learn English. But I was not really impressed. Recently someone offered me a position in FAANG company, I refused despite the high salary. In my humble opinion, your country is too diverse that it’s starting to hurt, you are being polarized over trivial stuff and social interactions are too shallow (I prefer opposite countries where it’s harder to engage with people but where discussions get a lot deeper) Also the American dream is not really appealing to me, I have lived in 5 countries (for at least a year), the US is the one I enjoyed the least
simonblack 5y ago
Are the (significantly) higher salaries worth it? Higher?? You'd have to be joking. When most people need several jobs to make ends meet? When there is no single-payer health-care for the average joe? When a brief visit to an emergency room will set you back thousands. And if you don't have a job, it's very probable that you won't have any health insurance either. In other countries, a you can have a triple cardiac bypass for zero out-of-pocket expenses. When people have very little paid holiday leave per year, if at all? In some countries, they get four to six weeks holiday per year, paid at normal (or higher) wage rates. When waiters and waitresses have to survive on what tips they get, instead of getting a reasonable living wage and tips are extra on top.? When many roads, bridges, schools, hospitals are in bad states of disrepair because there is no money for the infrastructure? When many of the country's airports look like 1960s hangovers from the third-world. Have you seen modern airports in the Middle East or Asia? The US is nowhere near the 'best place to live'. Sorry. Check out the 'most livable places' list 2021: 1 - Norway; 2 - Ireland (tie); 2 - Switzerland (tie); 4 - Iceland (tie); 4 - Hong Kong, China (SAR)(tie); 6 - Germany; 7 - Sweden; 8 - Australia (tie); 8 - Netherlands (tie); 10 - Denmark. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-countries-to-live-in https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-coun...

24 points by kurizu4444 5y ago

Are the (significantly) higher salaries worth it? If you could take your salary and live in a different country, would you do it?

johng 5y ago

I think this one is going to be entirely subjective. It depends on what you want and what your priorities are.

MarcelOlsz 5y ago
Some days I'll listen to Marty Robbins and day dream of dropping everything and moving to West Texas.

version_five 5y ago

I'm in Canada and the US is very appealing to me. More money, more personal freedom, better healthcare, more choice of food and other goods. I understand there is lots of disparity and some people are very badly off there, and I hear bad things about certain cities (but I'd want to do my own research before I believe what I read online). Overall though, if you're well off, the US is very appealing. Just to add, recent events have made the US even more appealing, but the "brain drain" from canada is very real and people have been moving to the US to make a better life for themselves for decades. I don't believe anything has changed

KiranRao0 5y ago
As a Canadian living in the US, here is my experience: Advantages - Higher Salaries (as a SWE, but similar for friends in other high skill professions) - Faster, more accessible healthcare - Easier access to COVID vaccines/boosters - Access to more products/services - Amazon has everything - Better credit card perks Disadvantages - Actually using healthcare is expensive - Losing my job is insanely scary (losing healthcare) - Way more advertisements (billboards, credit card offers, drug ads) - Banking is way more fragmented - The wealth gap is visibly wider (rich areas are slightly nicer, poor areas are far worse)
- digianarchist 5y ago
  Most Canadians would have to leave if they didn’t have another job anyway for visa reasons. Those 60 days would be difficult though. I’m assuming non-US citizens or PRs can’t use COBRA?
  - KiranRao0 5y ago
    Partially. Depending on the Visa, Canadians need to leave within n days. However, it's extremely easy to re-enter as a visitor (B-2) and stay for 6 months. Canadians are eligible for COBRA if they've earned income within the year. https://theea.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/WhenisanemployeeeligibleforCOBRA.pdf https://theea.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Whenisanemploye...
- dataflow 5y ago
  > Losing my job is insanely scary (losing healthcare) While this might be unusual, as I understand it, nothing really prevents you from getting your own insurance. Even if your health insurance premium were to cost $1000/month (which it likely doesn't), if your pay bump would be > $12k/year (+ tax) by moving as a SWE (which it probably would be), you could still go without a job for a whole year and still maintain your insurance. It would obviously be infeasible for someone in a profession with much lower income, but from what you said it sounds like it would be an option.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    It has been a while since I've lived in the US, but I think it is completely possible to pay $1000/month for health insurance. For a single person, a family is more. Employers subsidize your insurance, after all. I was paying couple hundred a month for two people - subsidized - and that was years ago. A family plan was even more. Even then, you have to have money to use it. On top of the insurance premiums, you'll have to pay a deductible. You'll probably pay $3000 (more or less) before the insurance even starts to pay anything, and then you'll have to pay a few thousand more before things start being free. Prescriptions probably won't count towards these totals. If you are lucky, you will have good coverage. If not, you might be out a few hundred a month for a single drug. Depending. I mean, people have been rationing insulin.
digianarchist 5y ago
I definitely agree with the diminishing returns of remaining in Canada as you become wealthier. I’m making the move this year. As a single income household there are a lot of tax advantages in the US compared to Canada.
Mattasher 5y ago
We moved from Toronto to Florida at the beginning of last year. Could not be happier with the decision. The US used to be much more of a monolith, now there are huge differences between the states. All of Canada is still in a mass hysteria that will continue for years.
- version_five 5y ago
  Yes, I think the difference has been much more clear recently. Both countries have hysterical people, but in Canada everyone is forced to go along with the lowest common denominator whereas in the US you appear to have much more freedom to ignore them
- busterarm 5y ago
  I moved from New York to Florida a few months ago and feel much the same. I have previously lived in Toronto and always thought of it as like New York but worse. Every day that I live in Florida feels like one of the best decisions I've made in my life so far. That said, the US has never been the best place to live. Copenhagen beats every city I've ever been to by miles.
  - Mattasher 5y ago
    Copenhagen looks like a lovely city but from what I can tell it's almost impossible to purchase real estate there.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      As a foreigner? Yes, you need government approval which is extremely difficult to get. You can as a permanent resident after some years. It's certainly a hot market as well, but there are a number of different options for financing. If your job is good enough it's certainly achievable and most of my software engineer friends there own their apartments.
  - deanmoriarty 5y ago
    Could you tell me what you found interesting about Florida? I am currently in the Midwest and deciding where to go next, specifically back to the West Coast where I lived for a decade, or branch out to another warm state (FL, TX).
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
> more personal freedom This is big to me (and not in a "muh freedum!" way). My perception is that in the US, you can just do something. Start a business. Start a political party. Start a protest. Change your name. Change your face. Change your profession. Change your religion. Change your gender. Some of those may be non-trivial, and you have no guarantee of success, but you can do them in the US easier than you can anywhere else. I said "my perception", because I haven't lived anywhere else, so... yeah. My perception.
- scotty79 5y ago
  My perception is you can't even skip mowing your lawn without vist from local Karens claiming you are destroying their property value. I think if you actually attempt almost any of the things you listed you'll rough some feathers of people in that space and they will retaliate, because USA freedoms rely on lack of central control that allows inordinate amount of local bullying.
  - CodeGlitch 5y ago
    > Karens Off topic, but why is this term even remotely acceptable? If this was used to refer to an ethnic minority then everyone would be screaming "racist". Not to mention it's also sexists.
    - beecafe 5y ago
      It would be if it was, but its not so it isnt.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      Ask all the Dicks you meet if they are offended by how their name is used.
gaws 5y ago
> recent events have made the US even more appealing Such as?

ArtWomb 5y ago

Yes. Strong IP. Colossal market. Access to capital. Talent pool. State of the Art R&D. As well as the culture of "doing big things" ;) But there is a major headwind in location / real estate / cost of living. I was really intrigued by a recent poster who said $150k was enough for a 3 year run rate for their entire team in India!

et-al 5y ago

Folks would totally salary arbitrage if it was easy, but there's a few hoops to jump through (payroll allowing it, mail forwarding, timezones with coworkers, new languages, new bureaucracies). Not to mention the caring for older family members usually moves up in priority as they age.

dexwiz 5y ago

Unless you are in the Bay Area, NYC, or similar, the salaries aren't that much higher. You also have to weigh that against the lack of social services. Sure you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, but that can be easily wiped away by a major medical event or chronic illness. By very few measures is the US the best place to live, but those indices also combine large swaths of very different regions. FYI, I currently live in SF, but have worked elsewhere in the US and made considerably less. Maybe the difference isn't so stark now with the rise of remote work. But I do think remote work will ultimately lead to another wave of outsourcing, especially as the barrier for tech continues to decrease.

vanusa 5y ago

Was it ever? Social atomization, hyperconsumerism and a generally blighted physical environment (who-gives-a-fuck suburban sprawl nearly everywhere) are what define your life in most parts of this country, if you don't earn a high enough salary to offset their effects. That, and the relentless "life == work" mentality exhibited even in other comments in this thread.

vanusa 5y ago
Lest I come across as a glass half-empty person, let me mention a few things about this country that I genuinely like and which rare (if not unique) throughout the world: (1) Genuine ethnic diversity (simply unmatched in its breadth and scale), and a genuine, bedrock belief that (at least in principle) if you're a citizen you have a right to be here and to live your own life, dammit whatever your ancestry, religious belief, however you dress, etc. The fact that the racism which does exist is so virulent comes in part from the fact that it is a minority view. (2) Truly awesome natural beauty, also very diverse (what's left of it anyways) (3) Pioneering in LGBTO and abortion rights while much of the world remains a frightening place indeed in these respects. (4) A away of looking at life in the large and as full of possibility which has brought many bad things but also Jazz, Rock'n'Roll, amazing cinema, etc.
- merlinscholz 5y ago
  Sorry but this just feels like you've never left the US: 1) The diversity may be partially right, but even if you are a citizen there still is enough discrimination especially against black people than in many first-world countries 2) Okay I grant you that, for a single country the US is very beautiful, mostly because of its sheer size. That's not to say there aren't beautiful spots in other countries though, there just cannot be as many 3) LGBT and abortion rights while there still is the bible belt, people blocking planned-parenthood institutions, and a significant part of the government actively trying to ban abortions and same-sex marriages, partially successful 4) The new world perspective through the rise of a new country only a few hundred years ago lead to lot's of innovation, but it is an illusion that the USA is the only country where any innovation and creativity happens

f0e4c2f7 5y ago

I think it is but the edge is slipping. If you're willing to do freelancing / consulting you can work your way up to US prices in Europe or with more effort in Asia. I would be interested in hearing what place might eventually (or now) be the US but better. The US I grew up in felt a little more naviely optimistic and ambitious which I would like to find more of. Lately it seems like I mostly meet extremely capable people who have access to massive capital and they choose to live a quiet life and retire rather than build stuff. Which is fine...but not what I'm looking for. India seems like a compelling possibility. Maybe Nigeria in a couple years? It's worth pointing out too how much this depends on city too. SF used to be the place that still had all that stuff but I've heard it's pretty tough to live there now.

deleted 5y ago

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spacechild1 5y ago

What an absurde premise.

deanmoriarty 5y ago

Regardless of the salary, I have never seen a place as beautiful as the West Coast, specifically the cities of San Diego, LA and SF. It still gives me goosebumps and watering eyes today when I land there. It might be that I am conflating the opportunities that the area has given me with the actual beauty, but I don’t think so. And I was born and raised in the beautiful Mediterranean coast in Europe.

jpgvm 5y ago
Heh. Come to Australia. West coast is nice but has nothing on Australia or New Zealand when it comes to beauty.
- Mandatum 5y ago
  I agree the US coast don't have much to write home about, however Montana, Colorado & rockies, Yellowstone, there's so much nation park lands and accompanying towns in the US that really do match up to AU and NZ.

kadomony 5y ago

It never was? We are just good at advertising because that’s what runs this country.

pooochie 5y ago

It was maybe before the WWII, what are you looking at? Over-priced lousy food, living on a 1M+ cardboard box? The diversity is pretty is only skin deep, people living there are pretty much all the same, same hobbies, etc...

heavyset_go 5y ago

Depends. A heart attack in the US can cost over $1 million to survive, and can very easily bankrupt small business owners and those in the middle to upper middle classes. Cost of living has been increasing at rates that engineer compensation has not kept up with at all, especially in cities. In many EU countries, you get 35 days of paid vacation mandated by law, along with 6 months to over a year of maternity and paternity leave. In the US, you get no such guarantee, and undercurrents of the Protestant work ethic are very well and alive in our culture. Sometimes new hires are expected to not take any paid vacations for the first first year of their employment. There's also a strain of private authoritarianism when it comes to employment in the US, by default, some employers treat their employees like property, and can seemingly dictate the terms of employees' off-time. Stemming from this are expectations of being on-call, but without the benefits of things like accruing overtime, being paid time and a half or with handsome bonuses that workers elsewhere tend to demand. All in all, workers' rights in the US are dismal compared to many first-world countries. Truthfully, if I were younger and didn't have ties to the US, I would look into emigrating to the EU if they'd take me.

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davidandgoliath 5y ago
> A heart attack in the US can cost over $1 million to survive, and can very easily bankrupt small business owners and those in the middle to upper middle classes How does that work when (most? all?) healthcare packages often have ~3-7k max out of pocket fees per year?
- scotty79 5y ago
  Probably what happens is that in your health emergency you suddenly discover that your specific problem won't be covered because it's expensive enough that some small print kicks in.
- dataflow 5y ago
  Apparently https://khn.org/news/a-jolt-to-the-jugular-youre-insured-but-still-owe-109k-for-your-heart-attack/ https://khn.org/news/a-jolt-to-the-jugular-youre-insured-but... although this one is for $100k; not sure what drives it higher. I won't copy it here, but search that page for "surprise bills", "balance billing", and "loophole".

vmception 5y ago

Very large place and most of its advantages don't require being here. For developing nation immigrants, US can be appealing. For natural/existing US citizens, the US is a good starting point to leverage in more developed nations. Salary discussion is a bit limiting, better to just be rich enough. Have capital. If you must live off of what you earn you just want to earn more from one area and spend less in another area, so the answer to that is “yes”.

sometimeshuman 5y ago

"If you could take your salary and live in a different country..." Spain (?) perhaps, because Spanish culture may have a better work/life balance and coastal Spain is similar to coastal California climate-wise. I haven't been on a date in years and suspect many U.S. men in tech are in a similar situation. Also almost any conversation would be engaging/interesting/humbling because Spanish is not in my primary language and that provides an incentive to be more social.

dixie_land 5y ago

You just answered your own question. No one ever asks if (any other country) is the best

sg47 5y ago

Depends on whether you are white or not. US is great for white people and for immigrants from certain countries. Probably suboptimal for others but in terms of economic opportunity, it's the best for everyone.

kleer001 5y ago

Moving to Canada from the USA extended my expected life span by 4 years. 4 YEARS! That's only the average. Sheesh. Actuary tables are kinda the end all be all for living: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe... But if you have more specific considerations there's likely stats on that.

mbrodersen 5y ago

I don’t think it ever was in general? I was offered a green card and a high value job in California. I decided to accept a job in Australia instead. That was the right choice for me. But YMMV of course. I think it depends on your personality, job situation etc. whether the US is the right choice for you or not.

deanmoriarty 5y ago
What made you decide to go to Australia as opposed to California with green card prospects? From my limited view point, the opportunity you left on the table was massive.
- mbrodersen 5y ago
  I have lived and worked in the US and I realised that the Australian culture is a better fit for me. I probably would have made more money in the US but that is not #1 on my list of what is important. The amount of misery, stress, and anxiety I saw every day in the US was not something I agreed with. Coming from a well functioning European country, it was a shock to me to see people begging in the streets. Before living in the US I had never seen a beggar “live”. Only on TV. It was a massive culture shock for me. Australia is a perfect blend of Europe and the US. Best of both in my opinion.

soueuls 5y ago

I lived two years in the US as an exchange student, it was pretty fun and that’s what allowed me to learn English. But I was not really impressed. Recently someone offered me a position in FAANG company, I refused despite the high salary. In my humble opinion, your country is too diverse that it’s starting to hurt, you are being polarized over trivial stuff and social interactions are too shallow (I prefer opposite countries where it’s harder to engage with people but where discussions get a lot deeper) Also the American dream is not really appealing to me, I have lived in 5 countries (for at least a year), the US is the one I enjoyed the least

simonblack 5y ago

Are the (significantly) higher salaries worth it? Higher?? You'd have to be joking. When most people need several jobs to make ends meet? When there is no single-payer health-care for the average joe? When a brief visit to an emergency room will set you back thousands. And if you don't have a job, it's very probable that you won't have any health insurance either. In other countries, a you can have a triple cardiac bypass for zero out-of-pocket expenses. When people have very little paid holiday leave per year, if at all? In some countries, they get four to six weeks holiday per year, paid at normal (or higher) wage rates. When waiters and waitresses have to survive on what tips they get, instead of getting a reasonable living wage and tips are extra on top.? When many roads, bridges, schools, hospitals are in bad states of disrepair because there is no money for the infrastructure? When many of the country's airports look like 1960s hangovers from the third-world. Have you seen modern airports in the Middle East or Asia? The US is nowhere near the 'best place to live'. Sorry. Check out the 'most livable places' list 2021: 1 - Norway; 2 - Ireland (tie); 2 - Switzerland (tie); 4 - Iceland (tie); 4 - Hong Kong, China (SAR)(tie); 6 - Germany; 7 - Sweden; 8 - Australia (tie); 8 - Netherlands (tie); 10 - Denmark. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-countries-to-live-in https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-coun...