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Agreed on the common ground. >'The answer is no and one group that tried to bring up this issue, ironically given your apparent political leaning, is BLM' Is

Agreed on the common ground. >'The answer is no and one group that tried to bring up this issue, ironically given your apparent political leaning, is BLM' Is this supposed to be some smear at me suggesting I don't believe many very real claims that have been made by black demographic regarding police abuse? What do you even mean by this being ironic? >The federal government executed a search warrant on the Branch Dravidian compound That's the most charitable view I think I've ever heard described defending what happened at Waco. You believe what happened was 'legally executed'? Or that those killed were legally executed? I'm not sure if number of people who died means anything in terms of who was right and who was wrong, but it's pretty telling you mention the 4 government agents that died by number but don't number the 25 dead children (mostly burned alive) and 2 pregnant women. This all after Koresh could have just been grabbed peacefully outside the compound rather than in a standoff. Afterwords agents POSED over the rubble and dead bodies. But a few paragraphs of us describing Waco isn't going to do justice to ourselves or fellow HNers, so please the few of you who haven't read about it please study and make your own decision. Lastly: I didn't say Waco had to be interpreted by the reader as 'domestic terrorism', I said they (DoJ) should start with the 'domestic terrorism organization' that carried it out. Do you understand the difference? You can decide for yourself what agency or body(ies) that applies to.

syki 5y ago
I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government.
- notch656a 5y ago
  >I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. I take this as basically accurate. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government. You make a lot of presumptions about what I've said about Waco. ALL I said was DoJ should start with the 'domestic terror organization' that fired upon civilians at Waco and Ruby Ridge. I said nothing about morality, whether the WARRANT was justified, or even who the blame for Waco rests on. This is starting to look like your own rabbit-hole we're going down where you think something you say about who is to blame at Waco discredits the ONLY assertion I made about Waco (which was civilians were fired upon.) It's starting to look like your own personal vendetta, one I'm very confused of the reason behind. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Even I don't have this level of confidence as to what proportion of blame to assign to who at Waco. The fact that you've reached such confidence about an event where we still lack full accuracy of details, is one of the most stunning and clear cases of Dunning-Kruger-esque effect I've seen on HN. Regarding a useless government? Nah I think the government can still maintain functional ability to execute a search warrant without executing in in the way the fatal siege was executed in Waco.
  - syki 5y ago
    Calling a federal law enforcement agency a domestic terror agency over Waco is precisely what I’m objecting to for the reasons I’ve given. I’m not making assumptions on what you’ve said in this regard. I’m explaining why I think using “domestic terror organization” with regard to Waco is not justified. It is incorrect in my opinion to use Waco as an example of a law enforcement agency being in any way comparable to a domestic terror organization. Dunning-Kruger has nothing to do with this exchange. That effect is an observation that less intelligent people tend to overrate their abilities more than higher intelligent people. I’ve not rated my abilities at all in any of these exchanges.
    - notch656a 5y ago
      >Dunning-Kruger has nothing to do with this exchange. That effect is an observation that less intelligent people tend to overrate their abilities more than higher intelligent people. I’ve not rated my abilities at all in any of these exchanges. False again. Dunning-Kruger is not about intelligence. It is about 'the cognitive bias whereby people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability.' If you're saying you don't assign yourself any ability to determine if someone was to blame, then I guess you're also saying your claim of 'all the blame' being with the cult leaders to merely be a meaningless statement made by someone devoid of any confidence in their ability to make it. "Dunning-Kruger-esque": I'm referring to the limited ability we have to know what actually happened at Waco, which you then parley into the ability to outright assign that you have the ability to know where ALL the blame lies for what happened at Waco. >Calling a federal law enforcement agency a domestic terror agency over Waco is precisely what I’m objecting to for the reasons I’ve given. How many times must I repeat myself? I said DoJ should start with 'the domestic terror agency that fired upon civilians at Waco and Ruby Ridge.' Again, where are you pointing out that I said that I was calling them domestic terrorists BECAUSE of Waco? We've belabored this straw-man over again, it's not what I said.
      - syki 5y ago
        I haven’t judged my abilities or rated them in our exchange and therefore Dunning-Kruger does not apply. You can’t know by how much I overrate myself or under rate myself; I’m just giving opinions. Just like you are giving an opinion about some federal law enforcement agencies being domestic terror organizations. This opinion of yours does not mean you think you are an expert or that you are overrating yourself. I could make the same baseless Dunning-Kruger accusation about you but I don’t because I actually understand that this cognitive bias pertains perceptions of oneself’s abilities and neither of us have made any self observations in our respective abilities. If you don’t believe Waco makes the law enforcement agencies in question domestic terror organizations then why bring up Waco? What is it that causes those agencies to be domestic terror organizations and why not give those reasons instead of bringing up Waco? These are rhetorical questions by the way.

syki 5y ago

I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government.

notch656a 5y ago
>I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. I take this as basically accurate. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government. You make a lot of presumptions about what I've said about Waco. ALL I said was DoJ should start with the 'domestic terror organization' that fired upon civilians at Waco and Ruby Ridge. I said nothing about morality, whether the WARRANT was justified, or even who the blame for Waco rests on. This is starting to look like your own rabbit-hole we're going down where you think something you say about who is to blame at Waco discredits the ONLY assertion I made about Waco (which was civilians were fired upon.) It's starting to look like your own personal vendetta, one I'm very confused of the reason behind. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Even I don't have this level of confidence as to what proportion of blame to assign to who at Waco. The fact that you've reached such confidence about an event where we still lack full accuracy of details, is one of the most stunning and clear cases of Dunning-Kruger-esque effect I've seen on HN. Regarding a useless government? Nah I think the government can still maintain functional ability to execute a search warrant without executing in in the way the fatal siege was executed in Waco.
- syki 5y ago
  Calling a federal law enforcement agency a domestic terror agency over Waco is precisely what I’m objecting to for the reasons I’ve given. I’m not making assumptions on what you’ve said in this regard. I’m explaining why I think using “domestic terror organization” with regard to Waco is not justified. It is incorrect in my opinion to use Waco as an example of a law enforcement agency being in any way comparable to a domestic terror organization. Dunning-Kruger has nothing to do with this exchange. That effect is an observation that less intelligent people tend to overrate their abilities more than higher intelligent people. I’ve not rated my abilities at all in any of these exchanges.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    >Dunning-Kruger has nothing to do with this exchange. That effect is an observation that less intelligent people tend to overrate their abilities more than higher intelligent people. I’ve not rated my abilities at all in any of these exchanges. False again. Dunning-Kruger is not about intelligence. It is about 'the cognitive bias whereby people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability.' If you're saying you don't assign yourself any ability to determine if someone was to blame, then I guess you're also saying your claim of 'all the blame' being with the cult leaders to merely be a meaningless statement made by someone devoid of any confidence in their ability to make it. "Dunning-Kruger-esque": I'm referring to the limited ability we have to know what actually happened at Waco, which you then parley into the ability to outright assign that you have the ability to know where ALL the blame lies for what happened at Waco. >Calling a federal law enforcement agency a domestic terror agency over Waco is precisely what I’m objecting to for the reasons I’ve given. How many times must I repeat myself? I said DoJ should start with 'the domestic terror agency that fired upon civilians at Waco and Ruby Ridge.' Again, where are you pointing out that I said that I was calling them domestic terrorists BECAUSE of Waco? We've belabored this straw-man over again, it's not what I said.
    - syki 5y ago
      I haven’t judged my abilities or rated them in our exchange and therefore Dunning-Kruger does not apply. You can’t know by how much I overrate myself or under rate myself; I’m just giving opinions. Just like you are giving an opinion about some federal law enforcement agencies being domestic terror organizations. This opinion of yours does not mean you think you are an expert or that you are overrating yourself. I could make the same baseless Dunning-Kruger accusation about you but I don’t because I actually understand that this cognitive bias pertains perceptions of oneself’s abilities and neither of us have made any self observations in our respective abilities. If you don’t believe Waco makes the law enforcement agencies in question domestic terror organizations then why bring up Waco? What is it that causes those agencies to be domestic terror organizations and why not give those reasons instead of bringing up Waco? These are rhetorical questions by the way.