4 ms·

The federal government executed a search warrant on the Branch Dravidian compound. It was a legally executed warrant and 4 government agents were killed in a g

by syki 5y ago

The federal government executed a search warrant on the Branch Dravidian compound. It was a legally executed warrant and 4 government agents were killed in a gun battle. After this the FBI surrounded the compound for 51 days before using tear gas to storm the compound. A fire started (possibly due to FBI incompetence) and a lot of people died. This does not qualify as domestic terrorism. If a government can’t enforce a search warrant then it’s pretty much useless. It’s weird to use Waco and not a multitude of other legitimate examples of government law enforcement overreach. At any rate, none of those would qualify for the label “domestic terrorism” in the strict sense of the word but would suffice for a broader point you might be trying to make. To wit, are there adequate checks on the abuse of police power. The answer is no and one group that tried to bring up this issue, ironically given your apparent political leaning, is BLM. Police in the U.S. regularly mete out non judicial punishments and there are virtually no real checks against this. The common ground, perhaps, that we share is that government overreach and abuse of police powers ought to be addressed in a meaningful way before expanding police powers or creating new investigative units. Especially when the charge is to stop domestic terrorism. That phrase can be twisted and abused in a such a manner that a non violent advocate like Martin Luther King could be labeled a domestic terrorist.

notch656a 5y ago
Agreed on the common ground. >'The answer is no and one group that tried to bring up this issue, ironically given your apparent political leaning, is BLM' Is this supposed to be some smear at me suggesting I don't believe many very real claims that have been made by black demographic regarding police abuse? What do you even mean by this being ironic? >The federal government executed a search warrant on the Branch Dravidian compound That's the most charitable view I think I've ever heard described defending what happened at Waco. You believe what happened was 'legally executed'? Or that those killed were legally executed? I'm not sure if number of people who died means anything in terms of who was right and who was wrong, but it's pretty telling you mention the 4 government agents that died by number but don't number the 25 dead children (mostly burned alive) and 2 pregnant women. This all after Koresh could have just been grabbed peacefully outside the compound rather than in a standoff. Afterwords agents POSED over the rubble and dead bodies. But a few paragraphs of us describing Waco isn't going to do justice to ourselves or fellow HNers, so please the few of you who haven't read about it please study and make your own decision. Lastly: I didn't say Waco had to be interpreted by the reader as 'domestic terrorism', I said they (DoJ) should start with the 'domestic terrorism organization' that carried it out. Do you understand the difference? You can decide for yourself what agency or body(ies) that applies to.
- syki 5y ago
  I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government.
  - notch656a 5y ago
    >I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. I take this as basically accurate. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government. You make a lot of presumptions about what I've said about Waco. ALL I said was DoJ should start with the 'domestic terror organization' that fired upon civilians at Waco and Ruby Ridge. I said nothing about morality, whether the WARRANT was justified, or even who the blame for Waco rests on. This is starting to look like your own rabbit-hole we're going down where you think something you say about who is to blame at Waco discredits the ONLY assertion I made about Waco (which was civilians were fired upon.) It's starting to look like your own personal vendetta, one I'm very confused of the reason behind. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Even I don't have this level of confidence as to what proportion of blame to assign to who at Waco. The fact that you've reached such confidence about an event where we still lack full accuracy of details, is one of the most stunning and clear cases of Dunning-Kruger-esque effect I've seen on HN. Regarding a useless government? Nah I think the government can still maintain functional ability to execute a search warrant without executing in in the way the fatal siege was executed in Waco.

by syki 5y ago

notch656a 5y ago

Agreed on the common ground. >'The answer is no and one group that tried to bring up this issue, ironically given your apparent political leaning, is BLM' Is this supposed to be some smear at me suggesting I don't believe many very real claims that have been made by black demographic regarding police abuse? What do you even mean by this being ironic? >The federal government executed a search warrant on the Branch Dravidian compound That's the most charitable view I think I've ever heard described defending what happened at Waco. You believe what happened was 'legally executed'? Or that those killed were legally executed? I'm not sure if number of people who died means anything in terms of who was right and who was wrong, but it's pretty telling you mention the 4 government agents that died by number but don't number the 25 dead children (mostly burned alive) and 2 pregnant women. This all after Koresh could have just been grabbed peacefully outside the compound rather than in a standoff. Afterwords agents POSED over the rubble and dead bodies. But a few paragraphs of us describing Waco isn't going to do justice to ourselves or fellow HNers, so please the few of you who haven't read about it please study and make your own decision. Lastly: I didn't say Waco had to be interpreted by the reader as 'domestic terrorism', I said they (DoJ) should start with the 'domestic terrorism organization' that carried it out. Do you understand the difference? You can decide for yourself what agency or body(ies) that applies to.

syki 5y ago
I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government.
- notch656a 5y ago
  >I’ll rephrase to clear misunderstandings. A legal warrant was obtained and federal agents attempted to exercise that warrant. Whilst attempting to carry out the warrant a gun battle ensued in which 4 federal agents were killed and 7 or so members of the cult were killed. After 51 days federal agents stormed the compound and quite a few people including children died. I take this as basically accurate. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Nothing they did was moral or justifiable. A government should have the power to exercise legally obtained warrants. Otherwise it is a useless government. You make a lot of presumptions about what I've said about Waco. ALL I said was DoJ should start with the 'domestic terror organization' that fired upon civilians at Waco and Ruby Ridge. I said nothing about morality, whether the WARRANT was justified, or even who the blame for Waco rests on. This is starting to look like your own rabbit-hole we're going down where you think something you say about who is to blame at Waco discredits the ONLY assertion I made about Waco (which was civilians were fired upon.) It's starting to look like your own personal vendetta, one I'm very confused of the reason behind. >All of the blame rests on the people in charge of the cult. Even I don't have this level of confidence as to what proportion of blame to assign to who at Waco. The fact that you've reached such confidence about an event where we still lack full accuracy of details, is one of the most stunning and clear cases of Dunning-Kruger-esque effect I've seen on HN. Regarding a useless government? Nah I think the government can still maintain functional ability to execute a search warrant without executing in in the way the fatal siege was executed in Waco.