7 ms·

Pretty sure everyone working inside the Capital that day felt terrified.

mikecoles 5y ago
commandlinefan 5y ago
The Kavanaugh protesters did the exact same thing just a year prior, though, and nobody was arrested and nobody claimed to being terrified that day.
- joshuamorton 5y ago
  > The Kavanaugh protesters did the exact same thing just a year prior Minus the whole forced entry thing. > and nobody was arrested Also untrue (or at least equivalently untrue. People were charged with crimes, although afaict all misdemeanors because there was no forced entry or threats of violence) > and nobody claimed to being terrified that day Probably because they weren't the same.
- space_fountain 5y ago
  I think that's not true. I'm sympathetic to this sort of violence not being dissimilar from some violence on the left. Things like storming police stations, but people were arrested (https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/04/politics/kavanaugh-protests-us-capitol/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/04/politics/kavanaugh-protests-u...) and it seems to me like waiting in line to sit in the observation gallery and then making some noise or confronting people isn't the same as pushing past police barricades and killing people or dragged them into a crowd and beat them (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/capitol-mob-violence-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/capitol-mob-violence-p...). I'm a person who often falls into false equivalents so it's very important for me to be reminded that these aren't the same
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    > killing people Only only person died in the 1/6 protest, and it was one of the protesters (shot and killed by a police officer).
    - space_fountain 5y ago
      Ah no you are right apologies, that was based on initial reports by the police and since it has come out that in fact none of the beatings directly killed anyone. Probably. He did die the next day of a stroke so the timing is still a tad suspicious. What is your point here? Are you admitting that yes 1/6 was in fact way more of a deal than the Kavanaugh protests?
- thinkcontext 5y ago
  The Kavanaugh protesters assaulted 140 officers with bear spray, clubs, fire extinguishers and broke doors and windows as they sought lawmakers?
serf 5y ago
> Pretty sure everyone working inside the Capital that day felt terrified. that's exactly the point poster is making; there was a distinct disconnection between the terror that 'everyone working inside the Capital that day felt' , and the actions/personalities/feelings/emotions portrayed by those considered 'terrorists' that day. I can't think of any other 'terror' event ('event' chosen in an effort to be non partisan) that took place that way, even when considering suicide bombers and hijackers -- there is clear evidence that the 'terrorists' in those respective incidents felt fear and terror themselves during the act. the 'terrorists' involved in the Capital event had big smiles on their faces, posed for pictures, texted with friends, drove together in large groups, got together on social media publicly and invited their friends and families to come join them in (what they called) protest. I have no doubt that those in the Capital were afraid -- but to view this as just the same as any 'terrorist' activity in the past is, too, missing nuance and context. I don't know what happened, and I don't know what it was -- but I know it wasn't anything like 9/11 or the Oklahoma City Bombing , two events that stick in my head as 'terrorism' , writ large.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  There were two kinds of people at the Jan 6 insurrection, and yes it was an insurrection. The first kind of people were the ones with big smiling faces, posing for pictures, taking selfies, etc. They are the ones crying in open court, claiming they thought they were there protecting democracy at the president's behest. They are not terrorists, but idiots radicalized by a lie. The other group were organized militias Proud Boys, 1st Amendment Praetorians, 3%ers, Boogaloos, etc. They came prepared in tactical gear, communication gear, they moved in formation, and they even stashed caches of guns and ammunition in nearby hotels in case things got really bad. These people are the actual terrorists, the former group are useful idiots. They were necessary to complete the objective: to occupy the capitol and delay the certification of the vote. These people were embedded in the protest at the capitol and were instrumental in egging on the crowd more. For example, they are recorded on bullhorns, shouting out tweets from the President as they occurred. Notably, this one: Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth! There are recordings of militia members reading these tweets over bullhorns at the Capitol, inciting the mob even further and giving rise to chants of "Hang Mike Pence". So let me say it one more time: The plan was to delay certification in order to cause a contested election. The delay had to come by occupying the capitol because Pence refused to decertify the election. Militia members could not breach the capitol on their own, hence why they needed the help of rubes who are now flowing into jail cells across the country due to their actions that day. Obviously there's a lot more that needs to come out to put all of the pieces together, but the picture is getting clearer and clearer. If you stopped paying attention on Jan 7 2021, there's a lot of info that's come to light that shows Jan 6 insurrection was the pointy tip of a month's long premeditated effort to overthrow the US government. Anyway, to your point, I don't think it's appropriate to discern a terrorist based on their personal state of mind regarding their acts of terrorism. To flip your point on its head, if McVeigh had done exactly what he did but took a selfie and smiled while he did it, wouldn't he still be a terrorist?
orang2tang 5y ago
The world would be a better place if more politicians and their ilk were terrified of the people. More walls, security, and protections for them means less freedom for us. They've had walls up for just a year and what do we have? Federal mandates for medical procedures, 9 supreme court justices deciding whether or not 30% of people will lose their jobs or have a forced medical procedure.
- joconde 5y ago
  > The world would be a better place if more politicians and their ilk were terrified of the people. Giving more weight to people willing to threaten violence won't fix your problems.
  - orang2tang 5y ago
    Actually the people who formed the US say otherwise. The tree of liberty is watered with the blood of tyrants.
    - joconde 5y ago
      And now you have people wanting the exact opposite (a de facto tyrant, in power because an election was overturned) trying to get their way. More precisely: making a freely elected government more vulnerable to violence won't yield an improvement.
      - orang2tang 5y ago
        I can tell you're stuck in the left/right braintrap
    - krapp 5y ago
      >Actually the people who formed the US say otherwise. The tree of liberty is watered with the blood of tyrants. There should be a law against using a quote from an American founding father without understanding its original context or the subtlety and dry wit of literate, pre-internet language. The person who wrote that was not saying what you think they were, nor were their beliefs about political violence what you think they were. Also, just for the record, because you seem to be one of those, that person was also a supporter of vaccinations when the science was in its infancy, the risks were little understood and vaccines actually were dangerous.

The Kavanaugh protesters did the exact same thing just a year prior, though, and nobody was arrested and nobody claimed to being terrified that day.

joshuamorton 5y ago
> The Kavanaugh protesters did the exact same thing just a year prior Minus the whole forced entry thing. > and nobody was arrested Also untrue (or at least equivalently untrue. People were charged with crimes, although afaict all misdemeanors because there was no forced entry or threats of violence) > and nobody claimed to being terrified that day Probably because they weren't the same.
space_fountain 5y ago
I think that's not true. I'm sympathetic to this sort of violence not being dissimilar from some violence on the left. Things like storming police stations, but people were arrested (https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/04/politics/kavanaugh-protests-us-capitol/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/04/politics/kavanaugh-protests-u...) and it seems to me like waiting in line to sit in the observation gallery and then making some noise or confronting people isn't the same as pushing past police barricades and killing people or dragged them into a crowd and beat them (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/capitol-mob-violence-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/capitol-mob-violence-p...). I'm a person who often falls into false equivalents so it's very important for me to be reminded that these aren't the same
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > killing people Only only person died in the 1/6 protest, and it was one of the protesters (shot and killed by a police officer).
  - space_fountain 5y ago
    Ah no you are right apologies, that was based on initial reports by the police and since it has come out that in fact none of the beatings directly killed anyone. Probably. He did die the next day of a stroke so the timing is still a tad suspicious. What is your point here? Are you admitting that yes 1/6 was in fact way more of a deal than the Kavanaugh protests?
thinkcontext 5y ago
The Kavanaugh protesters assaulted 140 officers with bear spray, clubs, fire extinguishers and broke doors and windows as they sought lawmakers?

serf 5y ago

> Pretty sure everyone working inside the Capital that day felt terrified. that's exactly the point poster is making; there was a distinct disconnection between the terror that 'everyone working inside the Capital that day felt' , and the actions/personalities/feelings/emotions portrayed by those considered 'terrorists' that day. I can't think of any other 'terror' event ('event' chosen in an effort to be non partisan) that took place that way, even when considering suicide bombers and hijackers -- there is clear evidence that the 'terrorists' in those respective incidents felt fear and terror themselves during the act. the 'terrorists' involved in the Capital event had big smiles on their faces, posed for pictures, texted with friends, drove together in large groups, got together on social media publicly and invited their friends and families to come join them in (what they called) protest. I have no doubt that those in the Capital were afraid -- but to view this as just the same as any 'terrorist' activity in the past is, too, missing nuance and context. I don't know what happened, and I don't know what it was -- but I know it wasn't anything like 9/11 or the Oklahoma City Bombing , two events that stick in my head as 'terrorism' , writ large.

ModernMech 5y ago
There were two kinds of people at the Jan 6 insurrection, and yes it was an insurrection. The first kind of people were the ones with big smiling faces, posing for pictures, taking selfies, etc. They are the ones crying in open court, claiming they thought they were there protecting democracy at the president's behest. They are not terrorists, but idiots radicalized by a lie. The other group were organized militias Proud Boys, 1st Amendment Praetorians, 3%ers, Boogaloos, etc. They came prepared in tactical gear, communication gear, they moved in formation, and they even stashed caches of guns and ammunition in nearby hotels in case things got really bad. These people are the actual terrorists, the former group are useful idiots. They were necessary to complete the objective: to occupy the capitol and delay the certification of the vote. These people were embedded in the protest at the capitol and were instrumental in egging on the crowd more. For example, they are recorded on bullhorns, shouting out tweets from the President as they occurred. Notably, this one: Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth! There are recordings of militia members reading these tweets over bullhorns at the Capitol, inciting the mob even further and giving rise to chants of "Hang Mike Pence". So let me say it one more time: The plan was to delay certification in order to cause a contested election. The delay had to come by occupying the capitol because Pence refused to decertify the election. Militia members could not breach the capitol on their own, hence why they needed the help of rubes who are now flowing into jail cells across the country due to their actions that day. Obviously there's a lot more that needs to come out to put all of the pieces together, but the picture is getting clearer and clearer. If you stopped paying attention on Jan 7 2021, there's a lot of info that's come to light that shows Jan 6 insurrection was the pointy tip of a month's long premeditated effort to overthrow the US government. Anyway, to your point, I don't think it's appropriate to discern a terrorist based on their personal state of mind regarding their acts of terrorism. To flip your point on its head, if McVeigh had done exactly what he did but took a selfie and smiled while he did it, wouldn't he still be a terrorist?

orang2tang 5y ago

The world would be a better place if more politicians and their ilk were terrified of the people. More walls, security, and protections for them means less freedom for us. They've had walls up for just a year and what do we have? Federal mandates for medical procedures, 9 supreme court justices deciding whether or not 30% of people will lose their jobs or have a forced medical procedure.

joconde 5y ago
> The world would be a better place if more politicians and their ilk were terrified of the people. Giving more weight to people willing to threaten violence won't fix your problems.
- orang2tang 5y ago
  Actually the people who formed the US say otherwise. The tree of liberty is watered with the blood of tyrants.
  - joconde 5y ago
    And now you have people wanting the exact opposite (a de facto tyrant, in power because an election was overturned) trying to get their way. More precisely: making a freely elected government more vulnerable to violence won't yield an improvement.
    - orang2tang 5y ago
      I can tell you're stuck in the left/right braintrap
  - krapp 5y ago
    >Actually the people who formed the US say otherwise. The tree of liberty is watered with the blood of tyrants. There should be a law against using a quote from an American founding father without understanding its original context or the subtlety and dry wit of literate, pre-internet language. The person who wrote that was not saying what you think they were, nor were their beliefs about political violence what you think they were. Also, just for the record, because you seem to be one of those, that person was also a supporter of vaccinations when the science was in its infancy, the risks were little understood and vaccines actually were dangerous.